path: root/english/vote/2005/Log-debian-dpl-discuss.txt

[06:00:09] <BrandenRobinson>	can someone tell me how to /ignore joins/parts in irssi?
[06:00:09] <stouset>	I disagree with everything the candidates have said so far! Discuss.
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[06:00:27] <fabbione>	BrandenRobinson: <Zugschlus> actually, my irssi-text needed /ignore #debian-dpl-debate * JOIN NICKS PARTS QUITS
[06:00:27] <Zugschlus>	BrandenRobinson: /ignore -channels #debian-dpl-discuss -time 480 * JOINS QUITS PARTS NICKS
[06:00:28] <peterS>	BrandenRobinson: we've just been discussing.  /ignore #debian-dpl-debate * JOINS PARTS QUITS
[06:00:28] <dondelelcaro>	BrandenRobinson: /ignore foochannel JOINS PARTS QUITS; should do it
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[06:00:36] <BrandenRobinson>	oh, look you were
[06:00:37] <karsten>	dondelelcaro: /topic that.
[06:00:37] <BrandenRobinson>	sorry.
[06:00:44] 	 * lilo looks in
[06:00:48] <lilo>	hi all
[06:00:51] <_mordechai>	hi lilo
[06:00:55] <part>	hey lilo
[06:00:59] <dondelelcaro>	karsten: there's probably not enough room...
[06:00:59] <karsten>	lilo: Gr00ts.
[06:01:00] Part	sanxiyn has left this channel. ("Bye")
[06:01:04] <peterS>	I think that can be contracted as 'hilo'
[06:01:10] <lilo>	hey _mordechai, part, dondelelcaro, karsten
[06:01:14] <lilo>	well, hi all 8)
[06:01:23] <AndreasSchuldei>	Zugschlus> actually, my irssi-text needed /ignore #debian-dpl-debate * JOIN NICKS PARTS QUITS
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[06:01:26] Nick	gus is now known as AngusLees.
[06:01:30] <AndreasSchuldei>	bah
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[06:01:36] <o-o>	full names?
[06:01:43] <peterS>	o-o: for the candidates, yeah
[06:01:44] Join	sanxiyn has joined this channel. (~tinuviel@218.145.51.39
[06:01:45] <AndreasSchuldei>	o-o: you are up, to?
[06:01:46] <AndreasSchuldei>	too?
[06:01:50] <Valis-Nestrav>	mmm
[06:01:54] <rcyeske>	plypkie: yo nid.
[06:01:54] 	 * joeyh wonders how he missed the announce for this
[06:02:11] <peterS>	o-o: some non-irc-regulars will be watching, full names for the candidates make it less confusing
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[06:02:26] <smurfix>	joeyh: I didn't, it's in my calendar, but I *still* was surprised that it's now. ;-)
[06:02:27] <Valis-Nestrav>	maybe set the debate chan to that mode where joins/parts are hidden once the debate begins?
[06:02:38] <ore>	*yawn*
[06:02:38] <dondelelcaro>	Valis-Nestrav: that can't be done, unfortunatly.
[06:02:44] <karsten>	dondelelcaro: Point.
[06:02:46] <fabbione>	helen: perhaps you want to give +v to the candidates on -debate ?
[06:02:57] <karsten>	dondelelcaro: Nuke something else then ;-)
[06:02:58] <martin_krafft_>	fabbione: yeah yeah
[06:02:59] <Valis-Nestrav>	ahhh :(
[06:03:01] <peterS>	and where's Walther?
[06:03:07] <gravity>	Hiding
[06:03:08] <Valis-Nestrav>	il just disable them in my client then ;)
[06:03:11] <gravity>	In his bunker
[06:03:13] <rcyeske>	peterS: the punk aint showing up
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[06:03:22] <trave11er>	:-)
[06:03:24] <dato>	fabbione: I think moderators _paste_ their responses. how it works is explained in the mail.
[06:03:24] <chrisa>	:D
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[06:03:39] 	 * trave11er shooshes
[06:03:46] <Robot101>	can we have a moderator called | ? :)
[06:03:52] <peterS>	heh
[06:04:00] <_mordechai>	and what's up with d. telekom? :)
[06:04:19] <jvw>	question for JonathanWalther: Why the f*** did you insist on this time, so silly for europeans, when you not even come to attend yourself?
[06:04:20] <womble>	Gooooo krooger!
[06:04:25] <sanxiyn>	Drumroll!
[06:04:39] <o-o>	he is running??
[06:04:44] <jvw>	btw, will this be publicly logged?
[06:04:47] <Robot101>	lol
[06:04:49] <dato>	o-o: yes
[06:04:55] <vorlon>	jvw: you'll have to excuse him, he has as much trouble converting to UTC as he does keeping track of which release we're preparing
[06:04:57] <helix>	jvw: this channel? or theirs?
[06:05:02] <stouset>	jvw: It's silly for americans too :-)
[06:05:06] <jvw>	this
[06:05:14] <musasabi>	jvw: actually this works quite fine in europe - it is 08:04 here.
[06:05:15] <ore>	vorlon: haha :)
[06:05:18] <jvw>	st	even worse
[06:05:19] <helix>	jvw: nah, I don't think so
[06:05:23] <sanxiyn>	It's 15:05 here.
[06:05:25] <vorlon>	that clinches it, the time choice was another AJ conspiracy
[06:05:31] <youam>	musasabi: it's 7:05 here
[06:05:32] <part>	musasabi: yeah, it's too early
[06:05:36] Mode	dondelelcaro sets the channel mode to 'no colors allowed'.
[06:05:38] <jvw>	*snicker*
[06:05:39] <dato>	youam: don't remind me ;-)
[06:05:44] <youam>	dato: sorry :)
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[06:05:48] <Zugschlus>	musasabi: depends on which Europe. It's 0707 here
[06:05:50] <Rhonda>	dondelelcaro: Thanks for thinking along. :)
[06:05:51] <pasc>	vorlon: it's highly inconvient in .au
[06:05:53] <dato>	hehe
[06:05:54] <smurfix>	musasabi: We're hackers. This is not "fine".
[06:05:58] <pasc>	vorlon: it's 5pm, we should be at the pub
[06:06:02] <vorlon>	pasc: <snort>
[06:06:03] <stouset>	Crap...Branden waved at Stevie Wonder. You think that's gonna hurt him at the polls?
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[06:06:16] <jvw>	AndreasSchuldei: still sleepy :)
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[06:06:32] <fabbione>	2 less to vote...
[06:06:35] <lilo>	maybe the point is for everybody to be sleepy....takes the edge off 8)
[06:06:37] <sanxiyn>	Convinient in .kr. Nice.
[06:06:49] <helix>	1am is convenient for me. yay EST
[06:06:58] <Zugschlus>	BrandenRobinson: /ignore -channels #debian-dpl-discuss -time 18000 * JOINS QUITS PARTS NICKS
[06:07:01] 	 * chrisa yawns somewhat
[06:07:02] <Zugschlus>	upps
[06:07:04] <jvw>	as if 7am is so cool...
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[06:07:18] <helix>	jvw: you're usually up at 7am anyway..
[06:07:18] <mazzanet>	heh break for nature
[06:07:32] <peterS>	BrandenRobinson is a naturist?
[06:07:33] <jvw>	helix: I'm not, no way
[06:07:33] <chrisa>	helix: it's 1am and some of us have exams this week -_-
[06:07:46] <sanxiyn>	Hm, martin miscompleted name, obviously
[06:07:46] <helix>	well, you should've taken naps
[06:07:50] <Zugschlus>	my cats wake ma at 0630 anyway
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[06:07:54] 	 * Rhonda pokes AndreasSchuldei.
[06:07:54] <gravity>	chrisa: Pussy :-)
[06:08:01] <pasc>	well so much for that theory
[06:08:01] <pasc>	=-\
[06:08:07] <chrisa>	gravity: pfft, I'll be up till 5. BRING IT
[06:08:07] <gravity>	Although I did just finish my month and a half long paper, so this is my celebratory party
[06:08:10] <gravity>	Woohoo
[06:08:11] <pasc>	now the question can be "why are you late"
[06:08:16] <peterS>	gravity: w00t!
[06:08:17] 	 * gravity ^5's chrisa 
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[06:08:30] <jvw>	07:07:44 -!- SirDinosaur [~user@s142-179-93-180.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined
[06:08:33] <jvw>	          #debian-devel
[06:08:37] <vorlon>	pasc: don't you mean, "which verse of the Torah explains why you were late"?
[06:08:41] <gravity>	lol
[06:08:42] <pasc>	heh
[06:08:46] <helix>	heh
[06:08:48] <sanxiyn>	heh
[06:08:50] <rcyeske>	sirdino!  weeeee!
[06:08:52] <plypkie>	aha, there he is ;)
[06:08:57] <lilo>	SirDinosaur has arrived
[06:09:03] <lilo>	that's such an odd nick
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[06:09:18] <dato>	he uses SirDibos too
[06:09:22] <lilo>	yah, I know
[06:09:23] <Zugschlus>	helen: can you try pasting the questions as one long line? The line breaks introduced by the irc client and yours don't mix well
[06:09:24] <stouset>	Why does Branden need a break for nature? That's what laptops are for...
[06:09:27] <rcyeske>	he gave up sirdibos it seems
[06:09:27] <trave11er>	jeez, such long questions make my head hurt...
[06:09:29] 	 * vorlon blinks at the first question. :)
[06:09:34] <lilo>	not sure what that means, but it's the one I've seen for the longest time
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[06:09:43] <jvw>	that's a lot for 5 minutes :)
[06:09:49] <Valis-Nestrav>	lol @ coffee
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[06:09:54] <martin_krafft_>	jvw: it's all about the pressure. :)
[06:09:58] <peterS>	oh come on
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[06:10:02] <helix>	vorlon: heh, yeah
[06:10:03] <jvw>	if even our main RM blinks at it :)....
[06:10:04] <peterS>	they knew a release cycle question was coming
[06:10:04] 	 * joeyh agrees and drags the debate tab to a larger frame
[06:10:04] 	 * lilo hums the Jeopardy theme
[06:10:19] <jvw>	yay ion users :)
[06:10:21] <sanxiyn>	joeyh: Ion?
[06:10:22] <bdale>	you usually don't get 5 minutes to explain stuff like this to a reporter, fwiw
[06:10:22] <sanxiyn>	Ah.
[06:10:22] <peterS>	it would be an odd DPL debate without one of those
[06:10:23] <vorlon>	jvw: I'm somehow thinking this question was submitted...um... earlier than Sunday
[06:10:24] Join	enrico has joined this channel. (~enrico@enrico.developer.debian)
[06:10:32] <joeyh>	da
[06:10:34] <helix>	ion++
[06:10:47] <peterS>	which kind of cation?
[06:10:48] <jvw>	vorlon: you're kidding, right? :)
[06:10:57] <jvw>	what release?
[06:10:58] <dondelelcaro>	peterS: the divalent type
[06:11:03] <bdale>	vorlon: so we get to see who's kept up on their reading?  ;-)
[06:11:09] <vorlon>	bdale: must be. :)
[06:11:09] 	 * gravity submitted a question well before sunday
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[06:11:15] <ore>	gee, vorlon, what happened on Sunday? tell us :)
[06:11:31] <peterS>	ore: #debian-devel has about a dozen mail messages talking about it
[06:11:38] <dato>	s/#//
[06:11:40] <peterS>	well, maybe more than a dozen
[06:11:43] <Loevborg>	.o0(how do I turn off channel joins in x-chat?)
[06:11:53] <Adrinael>	1251 in fact =)
[06:11:53] <Zugschlus>	Loevborg: kindly see your backlog
[06:11:54] <dato>	06:58 <dato> (using <tab>, I mean)
[06:11:54] <_mordechai>	right click on channel tab
[06:11:56] 	 * chrisa is so far behind on all happenings
[06:11:57] <sanxiyn>	Loevborg: Right click on tabs.
[06:11:58] <helix>	1251?!
[06:11:58] <o-o>	Loevborg: rightclick on channel
[06:12:01] <peterS>	ok, a dozen hundred
[06:12:03] <peterS>	I was close
[06:12:03] <dato>	Loevborg: 06:58 <pabs3> caiqian: right click on the tab, #d-dpl-discuss, turn off join/part
[06:12:06] <Rhonda>	jvw: If you believe that it's krooger, can you ask him to join?
[06:12:06] 	 * helix faints
[06:12:12] <ore>	peterS: yeah, I'm kidding, but it's 7am, gimme a break
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[06:12:14] <jvw>	I already joked yesterday about "Vancouver plan" becoming something like "Oslo", "Kyoto", "Geneva convention"
[06:12:19] <jvw>	Rhonda: hell no
[06:12:20] <Loevborg>	dato, thanks!
[06:12:21] <peterS>	ore: I know (:
[06:12:22] <Adrinael>	Oops, I was wrong. That's the number of mails in the last 48 hours, which of course includes other stuff...
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[06:12:25] <chrisa>	Even Walther joined...
[06:12:28] 	 * joeyh sees how many CANs he can process between questions
[06:12:29] <Zugschlus>	jvw: more like "Stockholm" or "Munich"
[06:12:32] <Adrinael>	Not just the Vancouver coup.
[06:12:37] <o-o>	ugg...
[06:12:39] <gravity>	helix: Have you not been keeping up on the Vancouver discussion?
[06:12:41] <trave11er>	vancouver syndrome!
[06:12:43] 	 * mazzanet slaps Tatey
[06:12:47] <rcyeske>	whats the vancouver deal?
[06:12:48] 	 * Adrinael actually read all those mails!
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[06:12:53] <Rhonda>	jvw: Thanks at least for noticing it.
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[06:12:58] <Tatey>	no slapping, kthx
[06:13:00] <trave11er>	rcyeske: are you from another planet?
[06:13:02] <Zugschlus>	rcyeske: Drop all but i386, powerpc, amd64
[06:13:03] <helix>	gravity: not entirely... it's sort of painful for me to watch the way people speak to each other
[06:13:04] <jvw>	even gentoo developers are peering over :)
[06:13:05] 	 * smurfix too, but that hasn't necessarily helped
[06:13:05] <enrico>	Big Trouble in Little Vancouver
[06:13:06] <peterS>	gravity: she actually knew about the meeting before it happened.  I think it's safe to assume she knows enough about it
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[06:13:17] <jvw>	"Serious issues with Mr. Vancouver"
[06:13:21] <dato>	jvw: lol
[06:13:22] <rcyeske>	trave11er: yeah im from vancouver.
[06:13:26] <o-o>	nothing going on on #debate.....
[06:13:26] <gravity>	peterS: No, I knew about it the same way. But like aj said, it was a surprise to all
[06:13:27] <helix>	eh, a lot of people knew about the meeting beforehand. that's meaningless.
[06:13:30] 	 * plypkie finds this hilarious, being in Vancouver right now
[06:13:32] <Zugschlus>	"A bad case of Vancouver"
[06:13:34] <trave11er>	"debian does vancouver"
[06:13:39] <dato>	o-o: candidates are preparing their replies
[06:13:41] <gravity>	trave11er: Nice
[06:13:42] <Zugschlus>	"Vancoup d'etat"
[06:13:43] <jvw>	"pulling a vancouver"
[06:13:47] <dato>	o-o: they have 5min, it's all in the announcement mail
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[06:13:53] <rcyeske>	plypkie: yeah this is good stuff.
[06:14:01] <Rhonda>	o-o: The replies are collected in a different channel, to give them an even chance.
[06:14:01] <bdale>	this format is going to be tedious to watch
[06:14:05] <Zugschlus>	"ftpmaster vancouvered out"
[06:14:07] <o-o>	5 min silence? No poltician gets that chance...
[06:14:08] <lilo>	DAH, dah dah dah dah. dah. dah.
[06:14:14] 	 * lilo ends his humming
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[06:14:18] <peterS>	o-o: politicians don't have to type, either
[06:14:23] <dato>	bdale: nod
[06:14:24] 	 * mazzanet smacks lilo with a dugong
[06:14:38] <enrico>	I see "Time" being called: what was the first question?
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[06:14:45] <smurfix>	peterS: Unfortunately. Would help a lot if they did.
[06:14:50] <lilo>	it was about the debian release cycle
[06:14:51] <diodesign>	evenin.
[06:14:51] <Zugschlus>	enrico: it was a long one
[06:14:54] <_rene_>	enrico: release process ;-=)
[06:14:55] <vorlon>	enrico: "what would you do about the release cycle"? :)
[06:14:59] <_rene_>	s/=//
[06:15:01] <lilo>	if broken, explain what you'd do, if not, explain why you think so
[06:15:01] <zbrown>	enrico: talking about the release process and how to fix/not fix it
[06:15:03] <peterS>	enrico: release cycle.  yawn.
[06:15:05] <lilo>	something of the sort
[06:15:10] <enrico>	Oh, right
[06:15:11] <enrico>	thanks
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[06:15:19] <Loevborg>	candidates seem to be as tired as I.
[06:15:20] <rcyeske>	there is a cycle to the debian releases?
[06:15:21] <dato>	enrico: full wording at http://rafb.net/paste/results/wmAEFp23.html
[06:15:26] <Astinus>	Time was 2 minutes ago, I think they're procrastinating.
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[06:15:39] <Zugschlus>	martin_krafft_: that line-by-line-paste is unreadable
[06:15:39] <helix>	urgh, this pastes very badly
[06:15:54] <ore>	wah.. we're expected to read this?!
[06:15:55] 	 * gravity is glad he expanded his irc chan window lenght
[06:15:57] <peterS>	helix: fortunately it also pastes slowly so it doesn't matter
[06:16:00] <jvw>	this is so going slowly...
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[06:16:06] 	 * trave11er didn't
[06:16:07] <bdale>	jvw: very
[06:16:13] Quit	trave11er has left this server. (Client Quit)
[06:16:15] <jvw>	since they pasted in some common channel anyway...
[06:16:17] <helix>	sure it does, if you don't read it line by line as it comes out
[06:16:18] <Rhonda>	Astinus: The moderators are preparing the answers for the channel.
[06:16:22] <_rene_>	Vancouver Prospectus. hehe
[06:16:26] <jvw>	can't they just past themselves?
[06:16:27] <joeyh>	WikiNames..
[06:16:28] <enrico>	dato: thanks
[06:16:29] <Astinus>	Rhonda: Ahh, I see now ;) Thanks for the reply.
[06:16:38] <chrisa>	Reading the responses hurts my brain
[06:16:43] <jvw>	Rhonda: oh, I read cabal where you wrote channel... /me must be a bit tired
[06:16:44] <hacim>	paste hurts
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[06:16:46] <chrisa>	Painful formatting
[06:16:52] <Rhonda>	Astinus: It's done this way to avoid exactly this accusings. :)
[06:17:00] Part	dakan has left this channel. ()
[06:17:08] <dondelelcaro>	See http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate for the current log if anyone missed the early part
[06:17:10] <Astinus>	Heh, now all we need is a decent formatting system and we're sorted ;-)
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[06:17:21] <Adrinael>	Let's see how many answers match the regexp /Vancouver/
[06:17:32] <Xore>	i have a hostmask :P
[06:17:51] <Rhonda>	jvw: Uhm, I try to avoid to say that you've got a point there....  *ducks*
[06:17:59] <lilo>	2.5 years? hmmmm
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[06:18:18] <peterS>	I love when AnthonyTowns takes a position "I fully support what ____ team / ____ delegate is doing" without mentioning that he's referring to himself
[06:18:23] <martin_krafft_>	Zugschlus: i will try to do something about it.
[06:18:23] <dato>	so SirDibos gets the good paste?
[06:18:28] <peterS>	he seems to have been doing that a lot of late
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[06:18:31] <joeyh>	elmo for dpl!
[06:18:33] <smurfix>	I'd regard 24 months as an upper sane limit.
[06:18:35] <martin_krafft_>	it's all about how they paste to me.
[06:18:35] <Mithrandir>	bah, this is in the middle of the night.
[06:18:39] <Zugschlus>	martin_krafft_: thanks
[06:18:42] <Astinus>	Heh, if I were voting based on length of response, we'd have a loser already
[06:18:43] <gravity>	Wow... maybe I should just jump ship for OpenBSD, since they're doing it right
[06:18:47] <stouset>	peterS: ROFL
[06:18:47] <gravity>	joeyh: :-)
[06:18:52] <o-o>	smurfix: whatever happened to release early release often...
[06:19:04] <trave11er>	was krooger's answer a one-liner?
[06:19:11] <Zugschlus>	martin_krafft_: much better
[06:19:11] <helix>	trave11er: seems so
[06:19:12] <fabbione>	martin_krafft_: and AndreasSchuldei answer?
[06:19:13] <rcyeske>	trave11er: he showed up late.
[06:19:13] <chrisa>	JW is being particularly... brief
[06:19:22] <Zugschlus>	Hm.
[06:19:22] <sanxiyn>	peterS: At least the head remains warm...
[06:19:23] <joeyh>	are there rebuttals or something now?
[06:19:31] <enrico>	martin_krafft_: how about pasting the PersonName as a heading and the rest without the [NamePrefix]?
[06:19:32] <peterS>	sanxiyn: yeah, he did mention that at some point
[06:19:37] <Zugschlus>	Does JW want to build OpenDebLD?
[06:19:39] <martin_krafft_>	"technical difficulties"
[06:19:53] 	 * vorlon lols. "I believe OpenBSD has developed the optimal release strategy."
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[06:20:07] 	 * daniels is amused that it's now the OpenBSD release strategy, not the OpenBSD/Xouvert/GNOME release strategy.
[06:20:17] <ore>	heh
[06:20:17] <fabbione>	bah
[06:20:19] <Hydroxide>	peterS: Anthony Towns is no longer a release manager, I think
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[06:20:28] <Hydroxide>	so I don't see how it refers to himself
[06:20:29] <Zugschlus>	Hydroxide: he is, however, ftpmaster
[06:20:30] <jvw>	he isn't
[06:20:32] <sanxiyn>	daniels: What was Xouvert release strategy?
[06:20:35] <Hydroxide>	Zugschlus: ah
[06:20:40] <daniels>	sanxiyn: 'don't'
[06:20:44] <Zugschlus>	Hydroxide: and he has been part of the Vancouver cabal
[06:20:44] <jvw>	he stepped down eh, a year ago?
[06:20:45] <bdale>	helen: no answer from Andreas?
[06:20:45] <Loevborg>	andreas sidn't respnd?
[06:20:45] <vorlon>	daniels: well, everybody else stole it from OpenBSD, including Ubuntu, you know
[06:20:49] <lilo>	I think it's very interesting to see Jonathan doing the 'serious' thing
[06:21:02] <fabbione>	vorlon: lol
[06:21:04] Topic	dondelelcaro sets the channel topic to "The 2005 Debian DPL debate will take place on 16 March 2005, 06:00 UTC | Candidate names and platforms are available at https://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001 | Debate details: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00507.html | Summary of debian-vote discussions: http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005 | This is the public discussion channel for the debate. | current debate log at http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate".
[06:21:04] Topic	ChanServ sets the channel topic to "The 2005 Debian DPL debate will take place on 16 March 2005, 06:00 UTC | Candidate names and platforms are available at https://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001 | Debate details: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00507.html | Summary of debian-vote discussions: http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005 | This is the public discussion channel for the debate. | Deutsche Telekom are dilettants!".
[06:21:05] 	 * lilo is not sure what else he thinks about that
[06:21:07] <o-o>	this is boring. where are the special effects?
[06:21:07] <peterS>	Hydroxide: he's stated before in this election cycle that he supported the release manager's work back when woody was released, or some such.  as well as how he thinks that the ftpmaster role are doing great
[06:21:09] <rcyeske>	when is he gonna talk about beer!
[06:21:10] <hacim>	4 minutes... why not 4 minutes and 15 seconds?
[06:21:13] <Astinus>	JonathanWalther:  Since you gave such a brief response, could you please elaborate on why you believe OpenBSD has the ultimate release cycle and how you believe you could apply this to Debian? What timescale are you considering for implementation, people can't be expected to just 'jump' and heypresto, surely?
[06:21:20] <sanxiyn>	Heh, the next is NM.
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[06:21:32] <_rene_>	omg. NM...
[06:21:32] <gravity>	Oooh, interesting question.
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[06:21:47] <joeyh>	o-o: I'm waiting for the question -- "please emulate 10 stages of a 8x8 game of life starting from initial random coinditions"
[06:21:48] <fabbione>	they are the same as last year
[06:21:52] <gravity>	Yeah, but NM without the "OMGZ0RZ! ELM0 HATES ME!" crap
[06:21:55] <Zugschlus>	what is wrong with Deutsche Telekom?
[06:22:07] <Zugschlus>	NM has greatly improved since Ganneff
[06:22:11] <mazzanet>	haha joeyh
[06:22:12] <joeyh>	(first dpl to end up with a glider gets my vote)
[06:22:13] <vorlon>	lilo: his DPL platform was one carefully crafted troll...
[06:22:17] <Zugschlus>	not any more a problem, IMO
[06:22:17] <hacim>	helix: said manpower
[06:22:17] <helix>	Zugschlus: that's madduck's ISP which was being bad earlier
[06:22:19] <Adrinael>	Deutsche Telekom seriously tried to keep madduck out of this =)
[06:22:22] <sanxiyn>	joeyh: Have you submitted that question?
[06:22:26] <joeyh>	pity no
[06:22:27] <helix>	hacim: ?
[06:22:39] <fabbione>	we are still missing AndreasSchuldei answer to the first question
[06:22:42] <Zugschlus>	helix: Deutsche Telekom or T-Oneline?
[06:22:42] <hacim>	helix: i hate that word, it so gendered
[06:22:48] <fabbione>	did he gave any answer to it or not?
[06:22:50] <peterS>	fabbione: presumably he didn't get it in in 5 minutes
[06:22:52] <hacim>	fabbione: he was late, maybe didn't have time
[06:22:56] <helix>	hacim: oh. well in this case it actually refers to men
[06:23:04] <Zugschlus>	hacim: "personpower" is clumsy ;)
[06:23:05] 	 * pasc wonders if any submitted a question about which teams could deal with additional manpower and why
[06:23:07] <joeyh>	perhaps he's just tag-teaming answers with overfiend..
[06:23:10] <helix>	Zugschlus: dunno, he said deutsche telekom, i don't know anything more than that :)
[06:23:16] <Zugschlus>	helix: I see
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[06:23:25] <gravity>	joeyh: tag-team scud?
[06:23:26] <fabbione>	peterS, hacim: i am asking to the moderators.. not just possible reasons
[06:23:27] <biella>	hacim, laborpower
[06:23:37] <hacim>	biella: superpower
[06:23:53] <bab>	grrlpower
[06:23:54] <hacim>	wondertwinspowerACTIVATE!
[06:24:07] <sanxiyn>	hacim: Super Cow Powers.
[06:24:26] 	 * o-o notes that Culus is not here.
[06:24:29] <sanxiyn>	(Type apt-get on the prompt, if you don't know.)
[06:24:39] 	 * Loevborg notes that being a non-native-speaker doesn't accelerate typing abilities in english.
[06:24:41] 	 * mdz moos
[06:24:58] <hacim>	hehe, don't make me get out my irssi cowsay
[06:25:05] <helix>	hm, speaking of mooing, wasn't Culus going to be in here?
[06:25:11] <enrico>	hacim: I was repressing the same thing
[06:25:17] <mazzanet>	moo.
[06:25:22] <sanxiyn>	Time!
[06:25:24] <hacim>	enrico: mooooooooo
[06:25:31] <vorlon>	Loevborg: yes, it adds latency.
[06:25:31] <Rhonda>	fabbione: He will most propably get a chance to answer it late in the second half.
[06:25:32] <sanxiyn>	Oh, much better paste.
[06:25:38] <joeyh>	argh
[06:25:40] <joeyh>	cutoff
[06:25:51] <fabbione>	Rhonda: ok, thanks
[06:25:53] <helix>	oh my
[06:25:54] <Adrinael>	Branden's line was cut
[06:25:57] <enrico>	martin_krafft_: Branden is truncated
[06:26:07] <vorlon>	Oh, what a liar, he didn't go through a New Maintainer *process* at all
[06:26:12] 	 * gravity laughs at Walters
[06:26:14] <sanxiyn>	But truncated.
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[06:26:26] <Zugschlus>	JWs Answer is fine as well
[06:26:32] <dato>	"it must be working well"
[06:26:33] <daniels>	wow, Walther's answer was the most stupid shit ever
[06:26:34] <dato>	LOOOL
[06:26:43] <daniels>	'if I just put my fingers in my ears, NM goes away!  look!'
[06:26:44] <gravity>	VOTE FOR ME!
[06:26:46] <jvw>	BrandenRobinson: be more brief :)
[06:26:51] <smurfix>	daniels: You expected otherwise?
[06:26:53] <sanxiyn>	"It must be working well"
[06:27:04] <part>	do we need a WikiWayOfWritingSkills part for the NM process as well?
[06:27:20] 	 * Zugschlus goes out fixing bugs in exim4
[06:27:22] <helix>	heh
[06:27:25] <gravity>	ew... wikis
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[06:27:28] <vorlon>	daniels: well, he didn't say "I think we should adopt OpenBSD's process for adding new maintainers"...
[06:27:36] <musasabi>	Actually long answers are nice..
[06:27:40] <_rene_>	vorlon: heh
[06:27:48] <smurfix>	part: No, but one of HowNotToEscalateFlameWars might be handy sometimes.
[06:27:53] <stouset>	Dynamic loader in T&S?
[06:28:01] <fabbione>	possible question to the candidate: "Are you willing to go trough the NM process again, as a complete anonymous, and be tested again?"
[06:28:03] <peterS>	vorlon: ha
[06:28:05] <ore>	vorlon: maybe we should, he'd be right out
[06:28:14] <Zugschlus>	we should Fast Track Theo De Raadt through NM
[06:28:23] <sanxiyn>	stouset: There's NM question template public somewhere...
[06:28:24] <dbindner>	The NM process kept me out.  I don't know if that is an indication that it works or is broken.
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[06:28:38] 	 * bdale notes that IanJ tried working on a doc about how to better communicate in Debian but got beaten down
[06:28:52] <mazzanet>	will the public get a chance to vote for anything?
[06:28:55] <peterS>	dbindner: considering the number of people who *do* churn through NM, I hardly think a good argument can be made that debian needs to stop excluding people via NM (:
[06:29:04] <gravity>	Zugschlus: :-)
[06:29:10] Quit	stew has left this server. (Client Quit)
[06:29:12] <peterS>	"we only have 600 people trying to join the project!  quick, we need to make it less intimidating!"
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[06:29:23] <sanxiyn>	peterS: Hehe
[06:29:23] <bdale>	peterS: it's a question of what we're filtering for.
[06:29:24] <vorlon>	stouset: the "dynamic loader" question is the one we use to identify candidates who should be made release assistants immediately after DAM approval. ;)
[06:29:27] <gravity>	bdale: I remember that from ages ago... there was something about the way he did it iirc
[06:29:27] <joeyh>	truncate....
[06:30:02] <vorlon>	bdale: yes, I seem to recall that the irony of him flaming people about the importance of a communication guide was too much to bear... :)
[06:30:02] <Mithrandir>	vorlon: oh, so I should cut that part of out my thesis lest you make me an RA? :)
[06:30:11] <bdale>	gravity: yes.  baby thrown out with bath water.  we're good at that.
[06:30:13] <trave11er>	yeah, yeah, re-evaluate and kick out the lazy bums
[06:30:15] <trave11er>	:-)
[06:30:21] <jvw>	Are we there yet?
[06:30:22] <peterS>	bdale: true.  if NM is not trying to filter for the ability to do real debian work and the ability to google for answers to technical questions, they're probably going about it wrong
[06:30:22] <dbindner>	peterS: The learning part of the process was very excellent, and I have never regretted the skills I learned.  But the wait was very long, so I went on to other things.
[06:30:26] <gravity>	bdale: Very true
[06:30:28] <vorlon>	Mithrandir: you're safe, we're already at our quota for UbuntuCabal members on the release team
[06:30:39] <Zugschlus>	martin_krafft_: if you're using irssi, there is a script that automatically splits replies if they exceed a maximum length
[06:30:39] <sanxiyn>	I think FreeBSD is doing formal mentoring, no?
[06:30:45] <peterS>	dbindner: the wait has been largely eliminated, rumor has it
[06:30:46] <nyu>	martin_krafft_: BrandenRobinson's latest response was truncated too
[06:30:50] <gravity>	Is someone going to post a log of the debate at the end of it?
[06:30:50] <Mithrandir>	vorlon: ok, good.  :)
[06:30:50] <bignose-ork>	martin_krafft_: would it be a good idea to paste each separate sentence of the responses?
[06:30:58] <daniels>	vorlon: maybe UbuntuCabal and TheOtherRatherMoreSecretiveCabal can fight it out for control of the release team? :)
[06:30:58] <dondelelcaro>	nyu: yeah, it was repeated correctly, though.
[06:30:59] <peterS>	bignose-ork: he tried that.  people complained.
[06:31:03] <helix>	gravity: yeah
[06:31:06] <bignose-ork>	mm
[06:31:07] <vorlon>	daniels: thumb war
[06:31:08] <gravity>	helix: Cool
[06:31:09] <vorlon>	daniels: in Vancouver
[06:31:16] <daniels>	vorlon: one, two, three, four
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[06:31:40] <gravity>	Death Match Bites From Vancouver in Soviet Russia?
[06:31:57] <nyu>	oh i see
[06:32:14] <trave11er>	gravity: in soviet russia, architectures drop YOU
[06:32:18] <sanxiyn>	Addition to Q3: What do you think about componentized linux?
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[06:32:27] <vorlon>	woohoo, AngusLees says we should put JW back through NM
[06:32:29] <vorlon>	he's got my vote
[06:32:29] <dato>	"JW: Who is our current DAM?"
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[06:32:30] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: expand on that...
[06:32:30] <gravity>	trave11er: :-)
[06:32:40] <helix>	dato: hahahaha
[06:32:46] <Loevborg>	trave11er, we have the same sense of humour. only you type faster.
[06:32:48] <helix>	"What does ITP stand for?"
[06:32:54] <o-o>	vorlon: yack. No. I also would never survive that ...
[06:32:57] <sanxiyn>	helix: Oh.
[06:32:59] <part>	"What year is it?"
[06:33:04] <hacim>	1992!
[06:33:09] <trave11er>	helix: lol
[06:33:12] <mazzanet>	"Why is Debian called Debian?"
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[06:33:30] <vorlon>	o-o: you wouldn't survive putting Jonathan through NM
[06:33:36] <gravity>	"Are nazis really bad people?"
[06:33:44] <bdale>	mazzanet: because we all have too many shirts now to want to change?  ;-)
[06:33:46] <stouset>	Helix: intend to package
[06:33:51] <ore>	bwahaha
[06:33:53] <mazzanet>	heh
[06:33:55] <helix>	err
[06:33:57] <_rene_>	*g*
[06:33:59] <stouset>	helix: Oh.
[06:34:00] <lilo>	hard to shrink a project
[06:34:03] <stouset>	helix: *thwaps self*
[06:34:07] <peterS>	gravity: ummm, no need to invoke godwin's law
[06:34:10] <Mithrandir>	lilo: just use the black choppers.
[06:34:10] <Zugschlus>	lilo: we are working hard on shrinking
[06:34:12] <bdale>	lilo: actually, it's pretty easy
[06:34:14] <helix>	at least I didn't have to :)
[06:34:22] <o-o>	vorlon: nope. I mean I would not survive the NM process. My process was sending a email: hey I got 5 packets. And back came: ok your in.
[06:34:24] <sanxiyn>	stouset: "Intent to package"
[06:34:26] Mode	gort gives channel operator privileges to slef.
[06:34:26] <stouset>	helix: You can too if you want
[06:34:28] <lilo>	bdale: it's easy in theory
[06:34:36] <lilo>	bdale: hard to have it actually get done
[06:34:36] <bdale>	lilo: you just have to piss off enough people to cause a fork
[06:34:40] <sanxiyn>	stouset: intend is verb, intent is noun...
[06:34:52] <peterS>	bdale: the problem with a fork is that you might lose some of the people you actually wanted
[06:34:56] <lilo>	bdale: okay, it's hard to shrink a project intentionally ;)
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[06:35:02] <_mordechai>	bdale, that's not really constructive
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[06:35:07] <bdale>	peterS: of course
[06:35:22] <dondelelcaro>	See http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate for the current log if anyone missed the early part
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[06:35:40] 	 * lilo hums the Jeopardy theme again
[06:35:45] <peterS>	question 3 is pretty loaded
[06:35:45] <sanxiyn>	Time?
[06:35:51] <sanxiyn>	Indeed.
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[06:36:01] <part>	dondelelcaro: put the log in the topic so you won't have to repeat
[06:36:04] <peterS>	answer it honestly that you think the project should shrink and you lose the votes of everyone in the demographic you believe should be shrunk
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[06:36:10] <dato>	mmm
[06:36:15] <chrisa>	oh oh! Fire half the developers!
[06:36:16] <peterS>	part: not a lot of space in the topic
[06:36:17] <dato>	grow of packages, arches, devels or users?
[06:36:17] 	 * lilo nods at peterS 
[06:36:19] <chrisa>	Insta-shrink
[06:36:26] <dondelelcaro>	part: I tried, but the topic has topiclock
[06:36:28] <dato>	bah, the users bit is silly, ok
[06:36:30] <sanxiyn>	dato: All of them.
[06:36:32] 	 * dondelelcaro isn't going to argue with chanserv
[06:36:35] <trave11er>	seriously, like half of the archive is probably junk
[06:36:44] <vorlon>	peterS: this is why a skillful politician always attacks their electorate one small chunk at a time, like Hitler did
[06:36:45] <peterS>	........unless you believe the people to be downsized are exactly the people who didn't vote in the election anyway
[06:36:45] <chrisa>	trave11er: *cough* hotbabe *cough*
[06:36:47] <bdale>	_mordechai: depends on how bad the situation is.  sometimes a fork can be a very productive thing to do.  definitely causes enough disruption to leave in the pile of "last resort" tactics, though
[06:36:57] <trave11er>	chrisa: :-))
[06:36:58] <sanxiyn>	Archive even has bogosort. Need more?
[06:37:01] <lilo>	hmmm, downsizing your electorate
[06:37:05] <chrisa>	sanxiyn: ....
[06:37:07] <bdale>	_mordechai: and to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting it here
[06:37:07] <lilo>	rightsizing your paradigm
[06:37:17] <_mordechai>	:)
[06:37:27] <chrisa>	I do wonder if anyone reads those linux gazettes in main
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[06:37:56] <enrico>	chrisa: don't think about removing them!
[06:38:18] <enrico>	After we've got a large enough sample, I'll run them through dadadodo and get a montly dadaistic linux gazette
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[06:38:21] <stouset>	chrisa: I saw those the other day...why aren't they just included as one package? Would get too large?
[06:38:29] <chrisa>	stouset: No idea
[06:38:30] <dato>	so aj talked about my 4 things
[06:38:39] <trave11er>	bah, what was that piece in the answer?
[06:38:40] <dato>	well, "my", they were pretty much obvious
[06:38:44] <peterS>	enrico: I thought that was called DWN
[06:39:01] <sanxiyn>	Do we really need all perl module packages...?
[06:39:04] <bab>	oh dear, branden is having a bad time of it
[06:39:21] <enrico>	peterS: ?
[06:39:32] <caiqian>	MatthewGarret get my vote this term
[06:39:40] <stouset>	Geez, they seem to be having some problems with copy/paste...
[06:39:42] <chrisa>	sanxiyn: They're used a hell of a lot more than the LG packages at least
[06:39:46] <chrisa>	:)
[06:40:04] <chrisa>	But if you argue perl, don't we have to remove the bazillion python modules too?
[06:40:08] <MatthewGarrett>	stouset: It's a difficult process. The moderators are doing as good a job as possible.
[06:40:15] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: alot of them are rather useful... but some of them probably should be gettisoned in favor of dh-make-perl
[06:40:27] <sanxiyn>	chrisa: python2.2-* should go after Sarge, IMO.
[06:40:32] <dato>	somebody could write a bot helped to moderate DPL debates
[06:40:36] <rcyeske>	this is painful
[06:40:40] <lilo>	live functions on IRC can be fairly stressful
[06:40:43] <lilo>	mistakes happen
[06:40:45] <o-o>	maybe they could cut out the static...
[06:40:48] <trave11er>	one thousand geeks can't make copy/paste work :-)
[06:40:50] <dato>	collecting answers and pasting them at the right time, in the right order
[06:40:58] <sanxiyn>	dondelelcaro: Yes, (simple) Perl module packaing is rather trivial.
[06:41:01] <ben_vos>	what is MIA?
[06:41:07] <sanxiyn>	Missing In Action.
[06:41:08] <jvw>	Missing In Actian
[06:41:09] <o-o>	Missing In Action.
[06:41:11] <Loevborg>	heh I like the dcc cahtter part.
[06:41:11] <Adrinael>	Debian - it makes copy & paste so effective
[06:41:15] <o-o>	Vietman lingo
[06:41:19] <ore>	dato: madduck said he would use one
[06:41:26] <ore>	but it doesn't seem to be the case here
[06:41:28] <Xore>	i've seen meeting bots that would be useful in this situation, which a question queue, +m with voiced team members
[06:41:28] <ben_vos>	thanks
[06:41:29] <jvw>	proecess of detecting, mailing, and ultimately orphaning packages of maintainers no longer interested/active
[06:41:38] <stouset>	MatthewGarrett: This I know. Just sympathizing with them.
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[06:41:41] <o-o>	lone soldier lost in the jungle maybe taken hostage by enemy combatants.
[06:41:45] <hacim>	Xore: know any names of meeting bots?
[06:41:47] <ScottF->	but he comes off as breing pretty close to perfectionist at times
[06:42:03] <Xore>	hacim: not offhand, unfortunately
[06:42:04] <stouset>	MatthewGarrett: Didn't mean to come across as disparaging :-)
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[06:42:15] <hacim>	Xore: been trying to find one for ages
[06:42:31] <rcyeske>	free direct paste!
[06:42:33] <rcyeske>	use it wisely
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[06:42:58] <lilo>	free paste and other adhesive prisoners
[06:43:13] <lilo>	hmmm, prisoners of adhesion?
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[06:43:15] 	 * lilo goes back to reading
[06:43:28] <joeyh>	lol
[06:43:30] <sanxiyn>	oops
[06:43:40] <joeyh>	ok, proven: DD's can't paste.
[06:43:40] <dato>	hihi
[06:43:44] <trave11er>	lol
[06:43:44] <Adrinael>	=)
[06:43:50] <diodesign>	someone, file a bug report. stat
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[06:43:53] 	 * enrico hugs Branden
[06:43:55] <dato>	Overfiend wants yyp
[06:44:03] <bab>	it's like watching a maths lecturer working the lights in the lecture theatre
[06:44:04] <part>	diodesign: on DDs?
[06:44:04] <Manoj>	that's because overfiend is not using Emacs
[06:44:06] <peterS>	if he's using 'screen' pasting facilities rather than mouse-based facilities, I wonder about him being in the X Strike Force
[06:44:12] <diodesign>	bab: totally!
[06:44:15] <Rhonda>	joeyh: I guess Ganneff would appreciate a pasting T&S question in his templates.
[06:44:18] <Loevborg>	yes. we need a bugzilla entry "debate".
[06:44:19] <dato>	peterS: lol
[06:44:24] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: Moderated as Insightful, 4.
[06:44:25] <Loevborg>	bts even :|
[06:44:25] <dato>	Rhonda: lol2
[06:44:35] <bob2>	wow
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[06:44:43] <bob2>	the other channel is too annoying to even watch
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[06:44:48] <ScottF->	my vote goes for one of them that can figure out how to copy and paist
[06:44:56] <diodesign>	ScottF-: haha
[06:45:01] <lilo>	I may not be able to stay around to watch the end, maybe I'll wait for the edited transcript
[06:45:04] <peterS>	ScottF-: so you wouldn't vote for madduck or overfiend..
[06:45:05] <gravity>	joeyh: We can't paste, so we just rewrite from scratch ;-)
[06:45:10] <Rhonda>	ScottF-: My vote goes out for one who can figure out how to spell paste.
[06:45:12] 	 * lilo is old and needs sleep
[06:45:18] <dondelelcaro>	Rhonda: glue
[06:45:33] 	 * mazzanet chloroforms lilo
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[06:45:49] 	 * lilo thanks mazzanet for his ethical treatment of lilos
[06:45:52] <bdale>	3 questions in 45 mins...
[06:45:57] <mazzanet>	hehe
[06:45:58] <peterS>	question 4 is numbered 5.
[06:46:05] <sanxiyn>	yup
[06:46:05] 	 * ore reads JW's answer as "I will do nothing"
[06:46:06] <_mordechai>	:D
[06:46:07] <plypkie>	bdale: good thing there's a time limit ;)
[06:46:08] <peterS>	I wonder if it's a devious plot to throw off one of the candidates
[06:46:08] <ScottF->	hehe...it has been a long long day for me.  NP Complete problems in computer algorithms
[06:46:09] <Adrinael>	DDs can't cout
[06:46:17] <ore>	which is pretty much what's he's been doing for the past few years
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[06:46:48] <sanxiyn>	ore: I think "do-nothing-DPL" was once the hot topic in a past vote?
[06:46:48] <vorlon>	yeah, we don't need to elect him to get him to do tha
[06:46:50] <helix>	Adrinael: I'm sure plenty of DDs know C++
[06:46:51] 	 * lilo makes a note, someone add a numbering T&S question
[06:47:06] <Adrinael>	Oops, +n
[06:47:07] <Adrinael>	=)
[06:47:13] <gravity>	vorlon: Zing!
[06:47:17] <lilo>	Adrinael: but can they spel?
[06:47:17] <sanxiyn>	(Was it Moshez Zadka?)
[06:47:22] <gravity>	sanxiyn: Yes
[06:47:22] <dato>	sanxiyn: yes
[06:47:27] <dato>	mmm
[06:47:33] <dato>	no JW nor AS for #3?
[06:47:36] <peterS>	Adrinael: helen isn't a DD yet anyway, though, right?  she doesn't have to be able to cout yet
[06:47:42] <Adrinael>	Oh
[06:47:51] <Mithrandir>	peterS: she's probably in training
[06:47:56] <sbeyer>	ah now branden's words make sense
[06:48:01] <dato>	Mithrandir: she's in DAM-wait mode already :)
[06:48:05] <Adrinael>	Well, helen has been able to paste the questions, so it's quite evident that she's not a DD.
[06:48:13] <peterS>	Adrinael: oh, point
[06:48:14] <sanxiyn>	peterS: Funny, 3.
[06:48:15] <lilo>	okay, I have to stay for the SPI question
[06:48:18] <ore>	JW would say it's because she's a woman, of course
[06:48:20] <bab>	dato: i saw andreas at least for q3
[06:48:20] <lilo>	interesting
[06:48:21] <mazzanet>	whats this -vote?
[06:48:26] <Rhonda>	lilo: One question was skipped, out of time problems, AIUI.
[06:48:28] <sbeyer>	first it sounded like he'd critizise the social contract ;)
[06:48:28] <daniels>	krooger is this year's moshez
[06:48:29] <bdale>	mailing list debian-vote
[06:48:29] <dondelelcaro>	mazzanet: debian-vote@lists.debian.org
[06:48:34] <Zugschlus>	dato: she is waiting to be appointed DAM?
[06:48:34] <mazzanet>	oh
[06:48:35] <peterS>	mazzanet: if you don't know, you probably aren't a debian developer anyway so you can't vote
[06:48:35] <daniels>	'as dpl i promise to do absolutely nothing'
[06:48:50] <dato>	Zugschlus: heh
[06:48:50] <gravity>	daniels: krooger is something else entirely.
[06:48:52] <enrico>	mazzanet: it's the list where voting issues are discussed
[06:48:57] <dondelelcaro>	Zugschlus: no, the wonderful stage known as damnation
[06:48:57] <fabbione>	daniels: that's not difficult.. you already do nothing ;)
[06:48:59] <Manoj>	krooger had better not ask for a recount
[06:49:06] <mazzanet>	i see
[06:49:06] <daniels>	fabbione: sure, but I'm not running for DPL :)
[06:49:07] <gravity>	"As DPL I will ruin Debian-Women, because I hate them"
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[06:49:16] <dondelelcaro>	Manoj: should I ask for one instead? ;-P
[06:49:26] <dato>	bab: ah, thanks for the heads up. now I see it.
[06:49:28] <bdale>	this one should be interesting to see the replies on...
[06:49:31] 	 * Rhonda votes daniels for true honesty. :)
[06:49:50] <peterS>	ore, gravity: the point of a chatter channel isn't to put words in people's mouths.  while it's amusing, I'd rather you didn't
[06:49:53] <Adrinael>	...then a paste to the wrong channel
[06:49:59] <Rhonda>	mazzanet: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/
[06:50:11] <gravity>	peterS: Uh...?
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[06:50:37] <bob2>	what's the point of martin pasting stuff from the candidates?
[06:50:39] <peterS>	gravity: well, maybe that *is* the point of a chatter channel.  I'd just rather not see it during an actual debate where people actually *can* say what they really mean.  maybe that's just me
[06:50:50] <mazzanet>	so we can see their answers?
[06:50:57] <dondelelcaro>	bob2: to make sure that the candidates have exactly the same time to answer
[06:51:04] <slef>	bob2: stop them editing after the close, I guess.
[06:51:04] <smurfix>	bob2: so that their answers aren't interspersed
[06:51:09] <lilo>	bob2: to make sure they don't go over limit and to keep them in order
[06:51:13] <gravity>	peterS: This is the whole point of the thing
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[06:51:25] <Manoj>	peterS: isn't the second half supposed to be like a real debate?
[06:51:49] <peterS>	Manoj: if so, I didn't see the announcement of that format
[06:51:57] <ScottF->	i am going to head to bed...my brain is...well mush.  P =? NP
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[06:52:15] <kylem>	s/Garret/Garrett/ ? :)
[06:52:16] <bob2>	the annoyance seems to outweigh those benefits
[06:52:22] <bdale>	bob2: agreed
[06:52:38] <dato>	Manoj: yes
[06:52:46] <dato>	peterS: it was in the final announcement mail
[06:52:56] <Manoj>	peterS: from the announcement:The last 50 minutes of the debate will consist of a moderated (not censored) discussion between the chairs and the candidates, on #debian-dpl-debate. Helen and Martin will pose questions or topics  for general discussion between the candidates.
[06:53:01] <Adrinael>	Which is in topic
[06:53:27] <Adrinael>	Okay, helen can't paste.
[06:53:31] <peterS>	Manoj: right, ok.  I still don't see how that changes whether the peanut gallery should be making up statements for the candidates, in real time
[06:53:32] <trave11er>	mmm, elderly developers
[06:53:54] <bdale>	that's relative
[06:53:55] <dato>	Adrinael: she's prepared to be a DD
[06:54:14] <Adrinael>	Maybe that was a practice run then.
[06:54:23] <helix>	can people please stop putting down the moderators?
[06:54:42] <Zugschlus>	helix: it's only a little, harmless fun
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[06:54:50] <mdz>	save the venom for the candidates ;-)
[06:54:52] <lilo>	Zugschlus: it contributes to the stress level
[06:54:52] <helix>	well, it's also hard work for them
[06:54:52] <bdale>	Zugschlus: actually, it's not harmless
[06:54:57] <gravity>	mdz: Damn straight :-)
[06:55:09] <lilo>	Zugschlus: whatever happens here, they see, and if there are problems before the comments, there might just be more problems afterwards ;)
[06:55:16] <Manoj>	helix: umm, even the candidates are being put down, so why should teh moderators be excempt? :P
[06:55:17] <dato>	ok, apologies. it's easy to follow the on-going joke.
[06:55:17] <Adrinael>	No offence meant, sorry to all ^_^'
[06:55:21] 	 * enrico hugs helix
[06:55:35] <peterS>	it *is* hard work, but it wouldn't have hurt to actually investigate line length limits and pasting techniques ahead of time
[06:55:36] <Zugschlus>	enrico: no sex please, we're geeks
[06:55:36] <sanxiyn>	"It needs to stop doing those things at once"
[06:55:50] <bdale>	peterS: 20:20 hindsight
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[06:55:57] <LucidIon>	If Debian is a self organising project, why does it need a leader?
[06:55:59] <bab>	how come walther's response is coming before time is up?
[06:56:00] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: Because they are moderators? :-)
[06:56:02] <enrico>	How come this reply came in before "Time"?
[06:56:04] <Manoj>	and if inability to paste is a DD trademark, this is not an insult either. I think.
[06:56:19] <Valis-Nestrav>	are their plans to neaten up questions/responces in some kind of transcript. or are the IRC logs just going to be publicly released as is?
[06:56:23] <kylem>	stop being dinks. there's no reason for complaining, as i'm sure an edited transcript will be pasted when it's done.
[06:56:35] <Adrinael>	Pasted, but how?
[06:56:42] <kylem>	Adrinael, pasted together.
[06:56:44] <Mithrandir>	ooh, walther doesn't know no one versus noone.
[06:56:48] <Manoj>	Valis-Nestrav: simple editing for aesthetics has not been ruled out.
[06:56:53] 	 * Adrinael doesn't dare holding breath
[06:57:02] <Valis-Nestrav>	Excellent :D
[06:57:03] <kylem>	Adrinael, do shut up.
[06:57:05] <smurfix>	Ah, Jonathan's even more hypocritical than anticipated
[06:57:17] <gravity>	He's pretty unreal
[06:57:20] <smurfix>	... than I anticipated, anyway
[06:57:51] <Manoj>	do I count as indian AND elderly developer?
[06:57:52] <kylem>	if an edited transcript isn't done, then i'll do one, happy? stop complaining about people doing a good job.
[06:57:56] <Rhonda>	Valis-Nestrav: The logs are going to be released.
[06:57:58] <gravity>	Manoj: :-)
[06:58:04] <dondelelcaro>	Manoj: hey, 2 out of three, and that ain't bad.
[06:58:06] <biella>	and I'm not aware of large Indian or elderly groups who'd like to contribute more to Debian but feel unable. I
[06:58:07] <biella>	heh
[06:58:10] <biella>	like AARP
[06:58:11] <hacim>	large indians?
[06:58:24] <gravity>	HUUUGE Indians
[06:58:26] <hacim>	oh, large groups...
[06:58:34] <vorlon>	LucidIon: vote for Jonathan Walthers, and you're assured of not having a leader
[06:58:38] <smurfix>	If this goes on I'd call for an immediate re-evaluation for any DD who votes him above "no fucking way".  :-/  (No, not really, but still ...)
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[06:58:45] 	 * jaldhar is elderly, Indian...and large :(
[06:58:47] <Manoj>	biella: I am pretty large too.
[06:59:00] <bdale>	jaldhar: ;-)
[06:59:04] <biella>	you are Manoj you make for numbers in size :-)
[06:59:06] <lilo>	if diversity is important, it probably won't create itself
[06:59:11] <biella>	large personality that is Manoj :-)
[06:59:25] <lilo>	or maybe it already has
[06:59:41] <jaldhar>	and when my daughter thinks I've done good, she says "papa, you're a big lady"
[06:59:44] <trave11er>	socioeconomic stratification... i'll be damned
[06:59:55] <jaldhar>	so I've got all the demographics covered
[06:59:56] <helix>	jaldhar: heh
[07:00:18] <sanxiyn>	"Make sure there are no barriers that unfairly affect certain groups"
[07:00:20] <gravity>	Woohoo! My question!
[07:00:23] <Valis-Nestrav>	oh....
[07:00:25] <sanxiyn>	Does language count as one?
[07:00:25] <Valis-Nestrav>	nice question
[07:00:26] <gravity>	Altered a bit
[07:00:27] 	 * bdale fears his children have picked up much of his lingo...
[07:00:27] <joeyh>	ah, I like this one.
[07:00:29] <peterS>	I'm still waiting for the benefits of including a wider demographic in debian development circles
[07:00:31] <trave11er>	how many questions are there?
[07:00:43] <Valis-Nestrav>	Hehehehe... and only two minutes... ouch ;)
[07:00:45] <ore>	gravity: good question
[07:00:46] <dato>	trave11er: this one is the last one, as helen said
[07:00:48] <peterS>	l10n is the only one I've actually seen
[07:00:51] <gravity>	bdale: Did your daughter give her talk on tuxracer yet?
[07:00:57] <trave11er>	dato: oh, didn't notice
[07:00:58] 	 * gravity thinks it so cool that she's doing that
[07:01:04] <sanxiyn>	Obviously, Debian has high barrier against people with poor English.
[07:01:09] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: Not as long as it's english. :)
[07:01:10] <dondelelcaro>	gravity: wasn't that at lwce boston?
[07:01:11] <jaldhar>	well for Indians, lack of bandwidth is a big barrier in participating in free software projects
[07:01:12] <Mithrandir>	gravity: it's at LCA
[07:01:17] <gravity>	dondelelcaro: Nope
[07:01:18] <bdale>	gravity: next month
[07:01:19] <dondelelcaro>	oh, right. lca.
[07:01:20] <gravity>	Mithrandir: Ah, ok
[07:01:34] <sanxiyn>	Learning English was damn difficult, I must say...
[07:01:35] 	 * dondelelcaro has all of the conferences muddled together in his brain
[07:01:42] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: There are usually quite some native speakers in most countries that are willing to help.
[07:01:52] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: ?
[07:01:53] <bdale>	sanxiyn: don't feel bad, it's a skill few Americans have truly mastered
[07:02:08] <gravity>	bdale: Wish her luck :-)
[07:02:28] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: What's your native language?
[07:02:32] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: Korean.
[07:02:44] <sanxiyn>	(Modern Korean, standard Seoul dialect, etc.)
[07:02:52] <bdale>	gravity: will do.  she's looking forward to it, but I fear I underestimated just how much attention she'd get from this.  the first zdnet.au article caught me by surprise.
[07:03:04] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: AFAIK there are some developers in korea which should be more than just willing to help.
[07:03:16] <Zugschlus>	Yeah. "Rely on the other developers to help me out".
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[07:03:23] <gravity>	bdale: Yeah, I'm not sure why it's newsworthy... but it is very cool
[07:03:27] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: I know, and actually I met them.
[07:03:28] <Zugschlus>	Like making another dozen of NMUs for a base package necessary
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[07:03:35] <enrico>	I remember meeting extremely skillful people in Taiwan, which had very well done packages but with very poor descriptions
[07:03:42] <bdale>	gravity: novelty value mostly, I think
[07:03:49] <Mithrandir>	Zugschlus: are you talking about debootstrap?
[07:03:51] <gravity>	bdale: Yeah, probably
[07:03:54] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: But it's not like you can get free translation service for reporting bugs to BTS. No?
[07:03:56] <peterS>	why did none of the candidates answer the question about what the benefits are to diversifying debian?  can it be that nobody can think of any benefits, but everyone is afraid to say"AFAICT it doesn't actually help debian to be heterogeneous"?
[07:03:58] <Zugschlus>	Mithrandir: no, ifupdown
[07:03:59] <irc_carrot>	coming
[07:04:02] <enrico>	You looked at the desc first, and thought: "oh, this is bad".  Then looked at the package debian/* and said "wow!"
[07:04:13] <dato>	"I am accustomed to controversy."
[07:04:25] <Mithrandir>	Zugschlus: ok; it seems to me that aj's style is doing development where NMUs are encouraged.
[07:04:29] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: (met Changwoo Ryu and Yooseong Yang, for what it's worth)
[07:04:46] <changwoo>	keysigning is another barrier in some regions, aprt from the language barrier
[07:04:51] <Manoj>	Hmm. how do we handle a dpl resignation?
[07:04:53] <Zugschlus>	Mithrandir: have you ever worked with a bug list _that_ large?
[07:04:59] <gravity>	dato: ;-)
[07:05:01] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: To be frank, BTS even doesn't *display* euc-kr encoded mail correctly.
[07:05:07] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: Developer's should be able to deal with not too good english in bugreports anyway, so it might not be your problem, as long as you try.
[07:05:11] 	 * sanxiyn should have reported that as bug against bts.
[07:05:11] <plypkie>	peterS: if there's a hugely skewed demographic to debian, then perhaps debian is missing out on the valuable inputs of all those who feel unable to participate
[07:05:21] <slef>	Manoj: with difficulty?
[07:05:24] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: You can still do it. :)
[07:05:31] 	 * enrico appreciates "I am accustomed to controversy"
[07:05:33] <sanxiyn>	Rhonda: It's a high barrier. Don't underestimate language barrier.
[07:05:35] <enrico>	No doubt on that
[07:05:36] <peterS>	plypkie: that's the usual line.  I know, I've heard it.  I just wonder if anyone can point to any evidence that this actually happens
[07:05:37] <Mithrandir>	Zugschlus: dpkg and mailman
[07:05:48] <rcyeske>	thank you moderators!
[07:05:48] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: it should display it correctly, ignoring the subject and from parts.
[07:05:51] <Zugschlus>	Mithrandir: ok, granted.
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[07:05:55] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: No, I'm not. That's why I'm in the german translation team, for a start. :)
[07:05:56] <dato>	helen, martin_krafft_ : go moderators go!
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[07:06:00] <sanxiyn>	dondelelcaro: It wasn't, last time I tried.
[07:06:06] <bdale>	martin_krafft_: hang in there
[07:06:08] <dato>	good stuff after the first difficulties.
[07:06:11] <peterS>	plypkie: obviously there are things that the 6 billion people in the world who aren't debian developers could possibly contribute.  but is it more likely that a demographically balanced set of them would contribute more than a homogeneous set?
[07:06:24] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: if there's a specific problem, please send a message with the offending problem to submit@bugs.donarmstrong.com for the Package: test
[07:06:25] <kylem>	helen, martin_krafft_, you're doing a fine job, don't let nay-sayers get to you.
[07:06:26] <vorlon>	sanxiyn: you may have to select a character set manually in your browser.
[07:06:46] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: ideally with a screenshot of what it's supposed to look like ;-)
[07:06:47] <Manoj>	kylem: there are nay sayers?
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[07:06:53] <sanxiyn>	dondelelcaro: Will do.
[07:07:04] <Adrinael>	Yeah, good job, don't mind the too-long-ongoing joke =)
[07:07:16] <changwoo>	sanxiyn: your english is enough. :P    shyness is the real barrier to not-so-well-speaking-english people.
[07:07:23] <kylem>	Manoj, it would appear so.
[07:07:29] <sanxiyn>	changwoo: True. :-)
[07:07:31] <Manoj>	kylem: where?
[07:07:39] <Valis-Nestrav>	her her, the folks in the debate channel are doing an awesome job
[07:07:41] <vorlon>	dondelelcaro: there's nothing in the BTS that handles charset conversion, or even setting an HTTP encoding header based on the corresponding mail headers.
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[07:07:42] <plypkie>	peterS: because people who have fundamentally different life experiences will probably have new things to say that you or i haven't thought of
[07:07:45] <Adrinael>	kylem, if you refer to me, apologies, it was a joke-too-far.
[07:07:52] <peterS>	plypkie: that sounds nice too.  examples?
[07:07:55] <Manoj>	I see humour challenged people, but no nay sayers
[07:08:02] <Rhonda>	sanxiyn: Unfortunately not all developers are behaving well...  But pretty please don't let them hush you away...
[07:08:09] <kylem>	Manoj, it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
[07:08:10] <kylem>	or something.
[07:08:11] <dondelelcaro>	vorlon: my patch for #61342 does all of that.
[07:08:15] <kylem>	Adrinael, nobody in particular.
[07:08:18] <vorlon>	dondelelcaro: oh, well then. :)
[07:08:19] <Valis-Nestrav>	... then its a sport
[07:08:31] <pasc>	Valis-Nestrav: no
[07:08:31] <dondelelcaro>	vorlon: however, it's possible that the conversion from exotic charsets to UTF-8 is broken
[07:08:33] <peterS>	plypkie: do you find it likely that these 'new things to say' will fix bugs, for example?
[07:08:35] <pasc>	Valis-Nestrav: then it's hilarious
[07:08:47] 	 * trave11er hugs kylem
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[07:08:50] <trave11er>	:-)
[07:08:50] <vorlon>	dondelelcaro: this patch has been applied recently?
[07:08:52] <Valis-Nestrav>	... @ all fun and games till someone looses an eye cliche
[07:08:53] <kylem>	trave11er, heh.
[07:08:54] <bab>	peterS: there is more to debian than fixing bugs, and there is more to software than technical correctness
[07:08:55] <sanxiyn>	dondelelcaro: euc-kr isn't exotic (as in the sense iconv supports it.)
[07:08:56] <dondelelcaro>	vorlon: no, unfortunatly.
[07:09:06] <Manoj>	kylem: overstating issues and seeing nay sayers in every shadow is also damaging ;-)
[07:09:06] <peterS>	bab: for example?
[07:09:10] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: well, to a roman alphabet only person it is... ;-)
[07:09:10] <vorlon>	dondelelcaro: right, so my statement stands as applied to the present BST
[07:09:14] <vorlon>	BTS
[07:09:20] <kylem>	Manoj, fair enough.
[07:09:23] <bab>	peterS: well, usability for one
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[07:09:39] <_mordechai>	peterS, forming a community
[07:09:40] <dondelelcaro>	vorlon: yeah, that's why I wanted to see the message sent to submit@bugs.donarmstrong.com, not submit@bugs.debian.org... ;-)
[07:09:41] <peterS>	bab: what about debian package maintenance do you think would benefit from the perspective of a large number of people from a demographic we don't have?
[07:09:46] <bab>	peterS: documentation for another, evangelism for another.  etc etc.  all of these are not black-and-white technical correctness issues
[07:09:59] <vorlon>	dondelelcaro: heh.
[07:10:01] <bab>	peterS: i'd rather not carry this conversation on the debate channel
[07:10:03] 	 * LucidIon finds it amusing when a flawless post in English is followed by a message to the effect 'Sorry about the how bad my English is' in equally flawless English.
[07:10:03] <gravity>	Geez... it is so damn late
[07:10:04] <plypkie>	peterS: well, it's all too common for men to not notice discrimination against women.  so what are we missing that women could tell us?  in the simple case, there could be usability issues, but there are probably many more
[07:10:13] <bab>	peterS: in fact, i'd rather not at all, my attention will be devoted to the debate in a few minutes
[07:10:14] <LucidIon>	bah
[07:10:26] <peterS>	plypkie: I'm intrigued.  what usability issues are sex-linked?
[07:10:45] <ore>	gravity: too damn early!
[07:10:51] <gravity>	ore: That too!
[07:10:57] 	 * slef finally snarfs coffee
[07:11:02] <enrico>	peterS: language is one (including metaphores such as symbols)
[07:11:08] <dato>	ore: and "just fine" somewhere, too =)
[07:11:15] <ore>	dato: I guess :)
[07:11:19] <smurfix>	peterS: They're not per se, but in our culture wmen tend to notice them more
[07:11:25] <sanxiyn>	LucidIon: You are amused, but a person in question *is* nervous about not being understood.
[07:11:27] <Manoj>	using metaphors as symbols is sex linked?
[07:11:32] 	 * Manoj is very confused
[07:11:42] <sanxiyn>	LucidIon: (I used to add "Sorry about my English etc" coda, but I don't now.)
[07:11:45] <enrico>	Manoj: using sex-biased language and symbols is sex linked :)
[07:11:56] <gravity>	Don't get in to sex linkage discussion. mjg59 has to concentrate on the debate
[07:11:56] <peterS>	enrico: I already noted that l10n is the one benefit I've seen so far from diversity in the development community.  I was wondering if there were any others
[07:12:07] <gravity>	And I really don't want to talk genetics right now
[07:12:09] <slef>	"Mi pardonpetas pri eraroj"
[07:12:15] <Manoj>	enrico: really? I have seen both men and woemn do that, so which sex is it linked to?
[07:12:24] <slef>	gravity: oh, I thought you were referring to flaming plastic.
[07:12:26] <Rhonda>	fabbione, Loevborg: Just in case you aren't currently paying attention, AndreasSchuldei has his aftertime for Q1. :)
[07:12:46] <gravity>	slef: He's a geneticist
[07:12:48] <Loevborg>	Rhonda, I'm watching :) thanks.
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[07:12:52] <fabbione>	Rhonda: thanks. i am reading :-)
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[07:13:11] <LucidIon>	sanxiyn: The reason it's actually amusing it that it preceeds or follows one by someone who doesn't know what punctuation is or the location of the caps lock key.
[07:13:16] <agi>	d
[07:13:34] <Mithrandir>	is there a live irc log of the debate channel somewhere?  I missed the first 15-ish minutes due to this being in the middle of the night
[07:13:40] <Manoj>	peterS: and that is much more linked to geographical diversity, as opposed to sex based one
[07:13:49] <dondelelcaro>	http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate for the current log if anyone missed the early part
[07:13:51] <martin_krafft_>	Mithrandir: no, sorry.
[07:13:52] <vorlon>	sanxiyn: yes, if you know the word "coda", you shouldn't be adding such a coda. ;)
[07:13:56] <dondelelcaro>	Mithrandir: see above
[07:13:57] <Rhonda>	Mithrandir: http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate for the current log if anyone missed the early part
[07:13:59] <Mithrandir>	dondelelcaro: great, thanks
[07:13:59] <sbeyer>	dondelelcaro, ah nice, thanks ;)
[07:14:06] <martin_krafft_>	Rhonda: nice. :)
[07:14:27] <dondelelcaro>	you can just reload as much as you want... it's basically what irssi-text is logging, and it's pretty close to realtime
[07:14:32] <Rhonda>	martin_krafft_: Thank dondelelcaro, not me.  :)
[07:14:34] <peterS>	Manoj: yes, exactly.  I was wondering why none of the candidates answered the question about the benefits of a diverse developer population and wondered if anyone here could name any.  not just sex diversity
[07:14:41] <LucidIon>	sanxiyn: If it's something I'm replying on, I'd compliment them on their English.
[07:14:53] <martin_krafft_>	peterS: okay. we'll see what i can do.
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[07:15:25] <Manoj>	peterS: well, you also gedt software diversity. like kanji input software is rarely used by english only speakers
[07:15:33] <plypkie>	peterS: the obvious answer for non-english speakers is wider translation to non-english languages
[07:15:41] <peterS>	Manoj: true.  that's part of l10n, sort of
[07:15:42] <_mordechai>	woo, a DPL who cannot do /help ignore
[07:15:43] <_mordechai>	heh
[07:15:47] <peterS>	plypkie: yep.  as I said.
[07:15:53] <sanxiyn>	LucidIon: That's very nice. You know how much they would get confident by your compliment? :-)
[07:15:55] <martin_krafft_>	_mordechai: whatever.
[07:16:06] <vorlon>	Yes, clearly anyone who doesn't spend hours fiddling with his IRC client isn't fit to lead a serious software project
[07:16:08] <slef>	_mordechai: are we voting for IRC skills?-)
[07:16:11] <Manoj>	peterS: ok. what about things like displaying saying from the Bhagavata Geeta in English?
[07:16:13] <Rhonda>	_mordechai: It's not in the T&S questions. Figure.  :
[07:16:17] <_mordechai>	slef, no
[07:16:29] <Manoj>	peterS: not  i10n, but most likely to come from an indian developer
[07:16:35] 	 * joeyh wonders where the xchat button for conference mode went
[07:16:43] <Loevborg>	_mordechai, irssi is pretty non-inutuitive anyway.
[07:16:44] 	 * slef washes vorlon's dripping sarcasm
[07:16:48] <peterS>	Manoj: is that a benefit to diversity, or a drawback?  people keep trotting that one out along with bible-kjv as stuff that arguably shouldn't be shipped (:
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[07:16:58] <Manoj>	joeyh: yeah. seems to have vanished recently
[07:17:02] <Mithrandir>	Manoj: or utf8 support which is often pressed by english speakers who don't have to care about backwards compatibility.
[07:17:04] <part>	Loevborg: most, if not all irc clients are
[07:17:11] <Rhonda>	May I suggest to take the BTS discussion somewhere else, please? It's already quite crowdy without it. Thanks for understanding. :)
[07:17:12] <joeyh>	used to be on the right of the input area didn't it?
[07:17:17] <musasabi>	If was pretty easy to do a /ignore #debian-dpl-debate * PARTS QUITS NICKS, which then had an unfortunate effect.
[07:17:19] <Manoj>	peterS: the geeta is not religious
[07:17:20] <_mordechai>	joeyh, right click on the channel tab
[07:17:24] <Loevborg>	part, you have a point there.
[07:17:30] <jaldhar>	Manoj: ???
[07:17:38] <Manoj>	peterS: it is tactical advice
[07:17:40] 	 * joeyh does this  and gets the ion tab menu :-P
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[07:18:16] <joeyh>	tabs are for WMs, not apps
[07:18:27] <Manoj>	jaldhar: mostly the geeta is how to live ones life, and rises above the religion side. It is philosophy of life more than worship vishnu and thou shalt be happy
[07:18:27] <sanxiyn>	Mithrandir: UTF-8 will save the world
[07:18:27] <sanxiyn>	(Eh, Unicode)
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[07:18:51] <peterS>	Manoj: 'anarchism' isn't religious either but it's drawn its share of fire for being useless archive bloat
[07:19:06] <Loevborg>	Why is martin throwing funny unicode characters at AngusLee?
[07:19:07] <Mithrandir>	sanxiyn: you don't have fifty gigabytes of legacy documents, I understand?
[07:19:09] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: How 'bout quotes from Analects of Confucius? :-)
[07:19:10] <joeyh>	what are these unicode symbols madduck is using?
[07:19:12] <Manoj>	peterS: hey, vi is useless archive bloat :P
[07:19:14] <joeyh>	not in my font.
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[07:19:19] <sanxiyn>	Mithrandir: I can do iconv.
[07:19:27] <peterS>	Manoj: more to the point, N-1 versions of vi are (:
[07:19:30] <Mithrandir>	sanxiyn: iconv fucks up any binary formats.
[07:19:35] <sanxiyn>	Mithrandir: Oh sure.
[07:19:37] <gravity>	joeyh: It was a spade in mine
[07:19:40] <Manoj>	sanxiyn: or from the art of war. or the I ching.
[07:19:50] <_mordechai>	joeyh, arabic, here
[07:19:51] <womble>	Why do all of our DPL candidates smell?
[07:20:00] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: Or Holy Quran.
[07:20:01] <peterS>	womble++
[07:20:02] <gravity>	womble: Smell of what?
[07:20:08] <sbeyer>	lol
[07:20:12] <Manoj>	sanxiyn: that one is religious
[07:20:14] <womble>	gravity: Just a general odour, apparently
[07:20:15] <jaldhar>	Manoj: yes but the life it is recommending to lead is a religious one.  It only doesn't seem that way because there is no seperation of religious and secular in Hinduism
[07:20:15] <Adrinael>	Why doesn't irssi support /ignore STUFFIWANTNOTWHATISAY
[07:20:20] <gravity>	womble: ew
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[07:20:23] <dondelelcaro>	Adrinael: it does, actually.
[07:20:28] <daniels>	martin_krafft_: yeah, technically a /me is a CTCP ACTION, so ignore CTCPS will probably take that out
[07:20:33] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: And Geeta is not?
[07:20:44] <Adrinael>	dondelelcaro, with a visible and intuitive action as a result =)
[07:20:45] <part>	voting futher discussion seems more and more appealing
[07:20:49] <gravity>	Oh man.. what is this? Battle Royale?
[07:21:02] <Manoj>	jaldhar: umm, it is a one that lioes within a system of ethica, but that could apply as well to an athiest like me
[07:21:04] <Loevborg>	joeyh, I get a "007f" box in xchat
[07:21:15] <hacim>	"the mailing list"?
[07:21:15] 	 * bab settles back in his seat and watches the show
[07:21:23] <gravity>	hacim: -vote
[07:21:34] <daniels>	Loevborg: then your font does not have a glyph for that codepoint (U+007F)
[07:21:35] <slef>	hacim: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/ perhaps
[07:21:44] <jaldhar>	Manoj: the idea religion = theism is a western one :)
[07:21:46] <dondelelcaro>	Adrinael: sure, that's why you run /ignore; right after you run the command. That tells you exactly what is being ignore
[07:21:48] <peterS>	wait, U+007F is a glyph?  I thought that was just delete
[07:21:53] <smurfix>	daniels: Umm,, that's the DEL key, that usually doesn't have a glyph
[07:21:54] 	 * joeyh would need a magnifying glass to read that missing glyph contents
[07:21:57] <daniels>	oh, right
[07:22:07] <smurfix>	0x7f usually means somebody's UTF-8 support is broke
[07:22:22] <smurfix>	(the one who pasted stuff)
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[07:23:23] <sanxiyn>	There was a fire in the stables. When the Master returned from court, he asked: "Was anybody hurt?" He didn't ask about the horses. -- Analects X.12.
[07:23:27] <Manoj>	you know, this debate is way better than the ones we used to have
[07:23:33] 	 * joeyh cheers on mjg's agressive behavior
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[07:23:47] <vorlon>	joeyh: he's been trying to cut down, though.  Since <looks at watch> 7 hours ago
[07:23:53] <vorlon>	;)
[07:24:00] <jaldhar>	actually our technical infrastructure at linuxworld was very bad
[07:24:08] <vorlon>	jaldhar: bwahaha :)
[07:24:12] <gravity>	I was hoping to see more interaction
[07:24:13] <jaldhar>	oh that isn't what walther meant?
[07:24:14] <slef>	vorlon: while he slept?
[07:24:16] <gravity>	jaldhar: Sadly true :-)
[07:24:19] <kylem>	jaldhar, that's cause you had Sun junk ;-)
[07:24:27] <womble>	What is with krooger and the "grand motivational statements" -- " Who here is up to that challenge?"
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[07:24:30] 	 * Loevborg loves the way JW ends every answer with a rhetoric question,
[07:24:58] <trave11er>	haha
[07:25:05] <enrico>	The first candidate replying to JW's provocations gets one penalty mark
[07:25:06] <jaldhar>	kylem: yeah Debian and Sun is like charlie brown and that football
[07:25:09] <Manoj>	actually, I cheered mjg59's outburst, myself
[07:25:42] <dato>	"JonathanWalther: how many BTS do you know?"
[07:25:47] <daniels>	oh man
[07:25:52] <kylem>	jaldhar, *nod*
[07:25:53] <gravity>	If our BTS is the best in the world then why doesn't anyone else use it?
[07:25:53] <sanxiyn>	Hm, what others think about Bugzilla, compared to debbugs or GNATS?
[07:26:19] <joeyh>	gravity: btw, did you see I managed to get bug deps working?
[07:26:23] <Manoj>	sucks to have to use a web interface
[07:26:28] <joeyh>	maybe you can use that for your thing (maybe not..)
[07:26:30] <sanxiyn>	joeyh: Just read your blog.
[07:26:37] <gravity>	joeyh: Yeah! I may just do it. You are the perl master.
[07:26:44] <helix>	go joeyh
[07:26:45] <womble>	"the biggest problem is people with thin skins"
[07:26:45] <dato>	mmm, thin skins
[07:26:50] <Manoj>	I like the email based nature of our stuff, now that mime attachements work
[07:26:53] <gravity>	joeyh: I'm still writing it as an app separate from debbugs, but it should help overall I think
[07:26:55] <peterS>	gravity: it's only the best BTS in the world for projects that look something like debian
[07:27:02] Part	kib has left this channel. (""All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss." -Douglas Adams")
[07:27:09] <vorlon>	jaldhar: oh, but The Register says Sun is basing their entire chip strategy on Debian, how could that be?
[07:27:18] <gravity>	peterS: I think it's a social issue actuall. Nat Friedman clued me in by accident
[07:27:19] <kylem>	vorlon, url/
[07:27:22] <Manoj>	damn
[07:27:25] <jaldhar>	vorlon: you're kidding!!!
[07:27:38] <Manoj>	I did agree with kroooger on the last one
[07:27:40] <biella>	thin skins
[07:27:42] <biella>	hmmm
[07:27:45] <vorlon>	kylem: hellifIknow, it's the crap coverage The Register gave to the "Debian is dropping ports!!!1!!1oneone" story
[07:27:47] <kylem>	vorlon, there's still half a month til april fools...
[07:27:48] <enrico>	6 actively talking people is kind of beyond the limit for a discussion, it seems
[07:27:48] 	 * Manoj goes off to wash his mouth with soap
[07:27:50] <sanxiyn>	Bugzilla hell.
[07:27:52] <dato>	what does "blow off steam" mean?
[07:28:03] <kylem>	vorlon, i still think benc's glorious return to activity is funny.
[07:28:03] <biella>	sex?
[07:28:04] <migus>	martin_krafft quick example debian-qa versus debian-devel ...
[07:28:09] <sanxiyn>	Personally I like Roundup, and then RT, but...
[07:28:10] <Loevborg>	sanxiyn, I seriously consider the BTS one of the weakest parts of debian.
[07:28:11] <Manoj>	the wounded prima donna syndrome
[07:28:12] <kylem>	dato, vent their aggression.
[07:28:12] <vorlon>	dato: to relieve stress by venting
[07:28:19] <sanxiyn>	Loevborg: Why?
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[07:28:25] <dondelelcaro>	dato: vague reference to steam boilers, where if you don't vent off pressure, the boiler explodes, killing everyone in the vicinity
[07:28:27] <Valis-Nestrav>	silly question: who actually is voting?
[07:28:29] <peterS>	Manoj: yeah, remember the mob mentality.  you're not allowed to agree with krooger on *any* issue
[07:28:29] <Rhonda>	dato:   to blow one's stack [Amer.] [sl.] - Dampf ablassen
[07:28:29] <Rhonda>	  to let off steam [fig.] - Dampf ablassen [fig.]
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[07:28:35] <vorlon>	kylem: what's funny is that he complains about not being *involved*, when the 5 RC bugs people are complaining about are on a package he's the maintainer of
[07:28:36] <sanxiyn>	Valis-Nestrav: Debian Developers.
[07:28:38] <Manoj>	not just aggression, could be frustration, tension, et
[07:28:40] <gravity>	kylem: Yeah, maybe he'll finally work on d-i for sparc :-p
[07:28:44] <Loevborg>	sanxiyn, you can't do fulltext search, for one.
[07:28:45] <dato>	ok, thanks. /me was imagining thinks.
[07:28:53] <kylem>	gravity, doubtful.
[07:29:02] <gravity>	Go Gus!
[07:29:14] <jaldhar>	loevborg: it's called google
[07:29:15] <kylem>	gravity, from his behaviour about ieee1394, he only started paying attention after a friend of mine submitted a patch changing MAINTAINERS...
[07:29:22] <kylem>	vorlon, heh.
[07:29:24] <sanxiyn>	jaldhar: That's not the answer though...
[07:29:27] <gravity>	kylem: That sounds about right, given the silo crap
[07:29:31] <kylem>	vorlon, that's hilarious.
[07:29:31] <womble>	Can we see something other than overfiend and krooger giving mutual blowjobs?
[07:29:40] <Rhonda>	dato: To do workout, or play halflife...  :)
[07:29:43] <Loevborg>	jaldhar, must be much more sophisticated than that!
[07:30:00] <Loevborg>	jaldhar, searching should be _key_ to a good bts.
[07:30:03] <migus>	womble: if you dislike it's up to you to /part
[07:30:06] <gravity>	womble: Yeah. I want blood.
[07:30:18] <vorlon>	Rhonda: blowing one's stack is *not* synonymous with blowing off steam.
[07:30:19] <sanxiyn>	"Smaller, focused lists don't seem to have problem" -- how true is this?
[07:30:40] <joeyh>	rather.
[07:30:43] <Manoj>	depends. I have seen some pretty nasty stuff on -kerne
[07:30:45] <Rhonda>	vorlon: Feel free to bug http://dict.leo.org/  :)
[07:30:50] <gravity>	sanxiyn: True, although things still do erupt
[07:30:53] <slef>	womble: please be less graphic.
[07:30:54] <womble>	migus: Or we could have a debate and discussion instead of the candidates all patting each other on the back
[07:30:55] <Loevborg>	sanxiyn, it's true!
[07:30:56] <joeyh>	ie, debian-boot (which is not too small, but is focused) has had one flamewar in the past 2 years.
[07:30:57] <jaldhar>	loevborg: usually I've only needed to search by package and debbugs is adequate for that.  bugzilla etc. is just overkill
[07:31:03] <kylem>	martin_krafft_, i think this is fine, it will be much more readable later with a bit of cleaning up, but i think this is the best that can be done.
[07:31:04] <enrico>	JW is doing a really good job of channeling all attention on him
[07:31:08] <Rhonda>	vorlon: I'm no native speaker, so I can't tell.
[07:31:13] <gravity>	martin_krafft_: Answer + Rebuttal Phase!
[07:31:13] <Manoj>	but yes, larger less focussed groups have higher incidence of heated disagreements
[07:31:17] <gravity>	martin_krafft_: Two parts
[07:31:20] <Loevborg>	sanxiyn, look at the "cario graphics" mailing list as an examle.
[07:31:27] <womble>	LWN headine: "Arseholes have thin skins -- Jonathan Walther"
[07:31:36] <migus>	joeyh: :-)
[07:31:40] <slef>	womble: hey, suggest questions or comment constructively.
[07:31:49] <peterS>	womble: now now, don't be insulting the dwn editors.  they might have thin skins.
[07:31:52] <Loevborg>	jaldhar, I'm not saying bugzilla is the answer (although it is better)
[07:32:00] <womble>	peterS: *L*WN...
[07:32:05] <gravity>	joeyh: I really think -boot is special though. It's like a haven of sanity in an insane project
[07:32:06] <peterS>	womble: oh, right
[07:32:08] <Manoj>	but the smaller groups also tend to be more technical, and less likely to deal with objective, far reaching issues
[07:32:23] <womble>	slef: Yeah, there's such a high concentration of useful questions here
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[07:32:28] 	 * joeyh can't recall any flamewars on -cd
[07:32:30] <Manoj>	-legal is pretty small compared to most lists, but has more than its fair share of heated discussions
[07:32:31] 	 * sanxiyn is a big fan of comp.lang.python, by the way.
[07:32:41] <joeyh>	probaly had a few on -release
[07:32:53] <slef>	womble: you're not helping.
[07:33:02] <daniels>	you can't eliminate insults, but you can craft a culture such as that people who are recognised as doing nothing but insulting are either dismissed as arseholes or severely discouraged from doing so
[07:33:04] <migus>	I never was any flamewar on -qa or on -www
[07:33:05] <Rhonda>	womble: That doesn't make plain abuses better, that there doesn't pop up useful questions, you know.
[07:33:07] <jdub>	quoth the raven, /ignore
[07:33:18] 	 * womble goes through the history looking for all of slef's constructive questions
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[07:33:24] <Loevborg>	Manoj, being small isn't sufficient condition, but it does help a lot.
[07:33:47] <Valis-Nestrav>	wow, this is nice :D
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[07:34:03] <Valis-Nestrav>	Really seems to bring out everyones opinions :
[07:34:04] <jvw>	migus: eh, I do remember some issue on -qa... I believe it was this ndis-wrapper bullshit
[07:34:05] <joeyh>	oh boy.
[07:34:12] <sanxiyn>	Go JW.
[07:34:14] <Rhonda>	migus: Uhm, there were some flamewars on -www. :)
[07:34:23] <vorlon>	Thin skins combined with assholes?  That adds up to what, hemmorhoids?
[07:34:28] <migus>	Rhonda: nothing comparable with -devel :)
[07:34:40] <kylem>	vorlon, have you seen team america? there's three kinds of people in the world...
[07:34:42] <Rhonda>	migus: Of course not. You only get quality flames on -www.  ,)
[07:34:43] <jaldhar>	vorlon: was going to say it but couldn't spell it
[07:34:45] <smurfix>	vorlon: That's exactly what people get when reading -devel :-/
[07:34:47] <vorlon>	kylem: sadly, I haven't
[07:34:53] <Manoj>	daniels: but otherwise reasonable people sometimes lose their cool. or the words are interpreted as being more imflammatory than the poster meant them to be
[07:34:56] <kylem>	vorlon, you're not missing much, but that line is funny.
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[07:35:03] <bdale>	vorlon: "buy some preparation-H before you vote..."
[07:35:17] <gravity>	ouch
[07:35:19] <migus>	Hoppefuly we have the DWN that makes good summary of our activity
[07:35:29] <migus>	thanks to Joey
[07:35:48] 	 * mazzanet hugs irc logs
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[07:35:53] <Manoj>	migus: funny. even dwn was flamed for blackballing people and providing biased reporting
[07:36:24] <Rhonda>	migus: Joey can't be everywhere. He really encourages help.
[07:36:31] <womble>	OK, here's a question for the candidates: Do you feel it is appropriate to delegate new people to a position within Debian without the support of the individuals already delegated, should that need arise?
[07:37:27] <kandinski>	I think worse than flamewars are low-level frames that last for hundreds of posts
[07:37:41] <kandinski>	reading Debian lists seems too daunting:
[07:37:43] <kandinski>	"is not"
[07:37:45] <_mordechai>	OK this stopped being interesting, Thanks and goodbye!
[07:37:48] <kandinski>	"is to0!"
[07:37:48] Part	_mordechai has left this channel. ("Leaving")
[07:37:51] <kandinski>	"is not!"
[07:37:56] <kandinski>	"is toO!"
[07:37:59] <jaldhar>	I think idealists and utopians will always flame more because they have so much more emotional investment in their arguments
[07:38:04] <sanxiyn>	"Implying that the general subscribership of -legal is basically nuts isn't very nice"
[07:38:06] <sanxiyn>	Well, I got the impression that some DDs strongly believe that -legal is nuts.
[07:38:10] <sanxiyn>	(was it Sven Luther?)
[07:38:17] <kandinski>	jaldhar: no, they will not
[07:38:24] <Manoj>	jaldhar: that defines free software contributors
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[07:38:46] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: yes, it was sven luther who said that... but then, the thread that spawned that pretty much speaks for itself, IMO
[07:38:52] <womble>	sanxiyn: Regardless of the truth or not of the statement, it still isn't nice...
[07:38:55] <jaldhar>	Manoj: that's why "be nice" will never work in Debia
[07:39:08] <Manoj>	sanxiyn: hell no. legal is pretty decent for performing analysis of licenses
[07:39:10] <gravity>	sanxiyn: Among others
[07:39:34] <kylem>	sanxiyn, -legal is very useful. some of it's analysis just aren't popular. this isn't their fault, it's the project's for being inflexible.
[07:39:36] <Manoj>	sanxiyn: indeed, they are our domain experts, such as we have, on those issues
[07:39:38] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: I just claimed that sizeable number of developers believe otherwise (regardless of fact)
[07:39:47] <gravity>	The problem isn't -legal's legal advice, it's -legal's DFSG interpretation
[07:40:12] <Manoj>	sanxiyn: and I am saying that is not a fact -- depending on how you define "sizable"
[07:40:21] <sanxiyn>	Okay.
[07:40:22] <kylem>	sanxiyn, we voted in favour of a few GRs that say otherwise.
[07:40:27] <vorlon>	sweet, MatthewGarrett banned JW from -women?  I didn't know he had that kind of cabal power, he's got my vote now
[07:40:34] <martin_krafft_>	womble: elaborate...
[07:40:34] <kylem>	vorlon, lol.
[07:40:34] <womble>	Can I get a retraction on that comment by krooger?  I don't have admin powers over any list
[07:40:39] <martin_krafft_>	08:40 <+AndreasSchuldei> could that community question person elaborate on the
[07:40:42] <martin_krafft_>	                         context, for a more sensible answer?
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[07:40:55] <sanxiyn>	Hail cabal!
[07:40:57] <dondelelcaro>	gravity: there are a significant number of contributors to -legal, all of whom have slightly different interpretations of the DFSG
[07:41:04] <helix>	womble: noted
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[07:41:07] <Manoj>	gravity: which dfsg interpretation?
[07:41:12] <joeyh>	let's just leave it at krooger apparently not knowing who are list admins are...
[07:41:31] <gravity>	dondelelcaro: I know. I take issue with a certain subset ofcontributers, who often post the most text to the list
[07:41:36] <mdz>	among other things
[07:41:38] <gravity>	Manoj: ^
[07:41:40] <kylem>	joeyh, people suprised ~= 0. :)
[07:41:49] <gravity>	joeyh: Or much of anything else
[07:42:05] <dondelelcaro>	gravity: then disagree with specific interpretations of the DFSG... the list is, as a whole, just a mailing list.
[07:42:07] <peterS>	joeyh: what?  but that doesn't cast him in the worst possible light.  that would be actually giving him the benefit of the doubt
[07:42:11] <bab>	martin_krafft_: request: can you please restrict your role to steering the debate, and not rebutting specific developers?
[07:42:24] <bab>	martin_krafft_: IMHO person-specific rebuttals should be left to the other candidates
[07:42:36] <bab>	martin_krafft_: and not the moderator (who has a uniquely elevated voice)
[07:42:44] <gravity>	dondelelcaro: That's rather cumbersome to say, in all honesty. And some of what appears to be the majority consensus of -legal I disagree with
[07:43:02] <womble>	He's acting like he's got parliamentary privilege already... yeesh...
[07:43:10] <ore>	it's outrageous
[07:43:20] <ore>	he does owe you an apology
[07:43:23] <enrico>	womble: he's trying to divert himself from "I was shitting on the list" to "I was a victim"
[07:43:31] <martin_krafft_>	bab: mh.
[07:43:33] <gravity>	enrico: Right
[07:43:33] <womble>	enrico: Heh
[07:43:43] <sanxiyn>	enrico: +1
[07:43:44] <enrico>	womble: calling names of people just to increase the attention around it
[07:43:57] <gravity>	He's a showboat
[07:44:24] <womble>	Funniest thing is, I do squat in d-women, and the people there have next to no interest in me.  I must have just pressed his buttons particularly hard or something
[07:44:30] <vorlon>	womble: you used your evil mind powers on him, didn't you? DIDN'T YOU?!?!
[07:44:36] <kylem>	if you look at it as a casual observer, he's doing a really good job at it...
[07:44:42] 	 * joeyh is glad to be governed by the candian consitiution now.
[07:45:01] 	 * gravity waits for vorlon's head to explode
[07:45:24] <enrico>	kylem: he shares many patterns with contested, yet popular politicians
[07:45:27] <sanxiyn>	"guaranteed in the Canadian constitution"
[07:45:29] 	 * womble directs his evil mind powers at vorlon... <you will release sarge...>
[07:45:38] <womble>	enrico: You got that right
[07:45:44] <kylem>	enrico, i'm thinking of one.
[07:45:56] <kylem>	enrico, and given a thread on -private a year ago (or so) find it pretty damned funny.
[07:46:26] <enrico>	Makes for an interesting case study
[07:46:30] <dato>	"dead delegate"?
[07:46:38] <gravity>	Oh man... I should go back and read that. I only saw the -project thread
[07:46:43] <Manoj>	you know, I've been thinking about the "being insulted on the mailing list" bit. Vorlon once chastized me for being wounded far too easily in discussions, and I think that is a valid point. reacting with wounded dignity can escalate a discussion into a raging flame far faster than just carrying on.
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[07:47:00] <vorlon>	AngusLees: for the record, we were aiming for a spring meeting, and various other committments resulted in April and May being non-starters.
[07:47:20] <sanxiyn>	Go Gus.
[07:47:24] <kylem>	joeyh, our constitution is fairly weak. especially the notwithstanding clause... :D
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[07:48:10] <Manoj>	kylem: weak in what regard?
[07:48:12] <joeyh>	if we cacrifice the "universal OS" slogan, I wan to be the one to hold its neck down.
[07:48:20] <kylem>	Manoj, "(1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter."
[07:48:22] 	 * joeyh would love to learn who put that BS on www.d.o
[07:48:27] <gravity>	joeyh: :-)
[07:48:31] <Manoj>	joeyh: that was bruces idea, was it not?
[07:48:40] <peterS>	"universal means different things to different people."  in other words, there is no universal definition of universal.  cute.
[07:49:11] <Manoj>	kylem: uymm, this is too late at night for me to understand language like that
[07:49:12] <gravity>	A few years ago we were known for our easy install too? When was this?
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[07:49:16] <gravity>	Probably well before my time
[07:49:25] <Adrinael>	Probably when Debian had 1 package
[07:49:27] <dato>	mmm, do you think candidates will continue for a while here after the official debate?
[07:49:30] <dato>	some of them, at least?
[07:49:31] <Manoj>	gravity: post SLS.
[07:49:35] <dondelelcaro>	dato: possibly
[07:49:41] <sanxiyn>	Hm, didn't know XSF's repository server ran unstable.
[07:49:45] <peterS>	gravity: yeah, mid-90s it was an easy install compared to the alternatives
[07:49:45] <gravity>	Manoj: Yeah... a little before me
[07:49:45] <Manoj>	when I installed debian, it was the easiest install around
[07:49:47] <kylem>	Manoj, the canadian government, either federal or provincial, can declare that a part of our bill of rights is inactive by act of parliament.
[07:50:24] <Manoj>	kylem: oh. no constitutional amendment required?
[07:50:26] <sanxiyn>	Manoj: Oh, so there was such time...
[07:50:34] <kylem>	Manoj, correct.
[07:50:47] <hacim>	Question for candidates: In what way do you think Debian can honor the labor contributions of non-DDs who do significant work for the project (e.g. translators)?
[07:50:58] <Hydroxide>	Manoj: it makes an exception for 5 years, with renewal necessary if it is to be continued
[07:51:29] <migus>	hacim: improvement have been made through the nm- proccess
[07:51:33] <sanxiyn>	hacim: Well, there are also enough people maintaining (sometimes important) packages and in NM...
[07:51:35] <Hydroxide>	Manoj, kylem: and to the best of my non-canadian knowledge, the politicians are pretty much loath to use that power, and the few times it has happened it has been undone
[07:51:40] <peterS>	hacim: good question.  in other words, how to take some of the wind out of the mythos that a @debian.org address is the only achievement one should be striving for
[07:51:43] <kylem>	Hydroxide, well duh.
[07:51:52] <kylem>	Hydroxide, how many times has the US declared martial law? :)
[07:52:05] <kylem>	Hydroxide, the only time i can think of was the FLQ crisis in 196X
[07:52:07] <sanxiyn>	peterS: Getting mentioned on the changelog? :-)
[07:52:24] <Hydroxide>	kylem: well, even without your notwithstanding clause, I think basic freedoms are greater in canada than the US right now
[07:52:27] <smurfix>	kylem: Doesn't need such a declaration to suspend lots of rights
[07:52:28] 	 * joeyh notices that he now has a space-bar reflex to pause noninteractive things he's watching.. like debates
[07:52:28] <joeyh>	pity it doesn't work, didn't someone mention breaks?
[07:52:32] <kylem>	Hydroxide, you don't typically get to be government for long when you revoke rights of your citizens. ;-)
[07:52:32] <peterS>	sanxiyn: yeah, that's status quo.  I'd agree with hacim that more public acknowledgement of people who do the work would be nice
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[07:52:52] <hacim>	sanxiyn: I'm talking about people who contribute to heavily to the project but aren't considered "part of debian"
[07:52:56] <kylem>	Hydroxide, that's true. you're guaranteed more in the charter.
[07:53:08] <kylem>	smurfix, yeah.
[07:53:10] <dondelelcaro>	kylem: I don't think it's been declared nation wide in quite some time... in specific areas it may have been implemented.
[07:53:32] <migus>	hacim: I know people in the situation you are describing.
[07:53:33] <gravity>	I thought everyone credited their translators in the changelogs
[07:53:36] <kylem>	dondelelcaro, i'm having a hard time thinking of any time where it would have been (but i've never taken a US history class) :)
[07:53:41] 	 * enrico goes to work
[07:53:42] <Manoj>	joeyh: we've had the break that was mentioned
[07:53:58] <sanxiyn>	gravity: I think peterS is saying that something more than changelog mention may be motiviating.
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[07:54:06] <dondelelcaro>	kylem: about the only times I can think of would be in civil war times and/or 1812... and even then, it's imposed in very specific locales.
[07:54:13] 	 * sanxiyn is just fine with changelog though.
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[07:54:26] <kylem>	dondelelcaro, *nod*
[07:54:29] 	 * gravity shrugs. It's not like DD's get much more credit.
[07:54:35] <sanxiyn>	gravity: Indeed.
[07:54:40] 	 * hacim contemplates @i18n.debian.org addressses and voting power, but no upload ability
[07:54:45] <gravity>	Unless you want your blog syndicated to planet Debian. Hell, even Simon Law was on there for a whiel
[07:54:46] <kylem>	gravity, only when we fuck shit up. :)
[07:54:50] <sanxiyn>	hacim: Oh.
[07:54:54] <gravity>	kylem: Right :-)
[07:55:07] <migus>	hacim: is that so hard to join the project and maintaining a few packages ?
[07:55:13] <gravity>	WOOHOO to DWN Features!
[07:55:31] <jaldhar>	hacim: they should get @scc.debian.org addresses
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[07:55:32] <Rhonda>	hacim: I think that's a sensible suggestion. Could you raise it on debian-project@lists?
[07:55:33] <slef>	gravity: ?
[07:55:34] <sanxiyn>	migus: Yes, currently.
[07:55:47] <kylem>	wtf
[07:55:51] <kylem>	translators getting email addresses?
[07:55:59] <gravity>	slef: I'd suggested adding feature articles (tutorials and such) to DWN to make it more than just the weekly news
[07:56:01] <Rhonda>	migus: Is that so hard to not force everyone who wants to contribute something to maintain a package?
[07:56:05] <gravity>	slef: It's cool to see someone else with the idea
[07:56:05] <kylem>	i agree they are important and should be recognized, but that's kind of extreme.
[07:56:20] <migus>	Rhonda: you are right :)
[07:56:22] <sanxiyn>	kylem: I think GNOME project gives translators CVS commiting right.
[07:56:24] <gravity>	Yeah... easy access to projects via alioth should be plenty
[07:56:30] <Manoj>	kylem: should they be full developers instead?
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[07:56:39] <gravity>	sanxiyn: Well, that doesn't need an @debian.org
[07:56:50] <kylem>	Manoj, why would they need to be, if we're just giving them a mail alias.
[07:56:57] <Rhonda>	kylem: It's a sensible thing to do. They contribute quite often _MUCH MORE_ than $joe_random Debian Developer.
[07:57:03] <hacim>	Rhonda: it was raised at the last debconf some, but it would be good to bring it up again for discussion
[07:57:11] <kylem>	Rhonda, it's only an issue if you don't speak english. ;-)
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[07:57:44] <womble>	How would someone go through NM completely anonymously?
[07:57:48] <Manoj>	essentially the question comes down to when should some one be enfranchised in debian
[07:57:56] <kylem>	Rhonda, i also think $joe random loser needs to be expunged for the project if they're not contributing.
[07:58:20] <kylem>	Rhonda, maybe the best thing is to take ubuntu's dealie for translations when it's ready to be free.
[07:58:23] <dato>	so JW to NM, now.
[07:58:30] <dato>	he agreed to it.
[07:58:30] <gravity>	womble: Perhaps just a fake name?
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[07:58:42] <Rhonda>	kylem: Of course. I'm fully for a recheck every so-and-so period of time.
[07:58:52] <womble>	gravity: How would you pass the ID check?  *Someone* would have to know who you really are
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[07:59:04] <womble>	The AM couldn't know, so a couple of other DDs would have to sign the fake key
[07:59:06] <gravity>	womble: Good point.
[07:59:07] <dondelelcaro>	womble: actually, rather easily... since you could sign your fake key...
[07:59:22] <womble>	dondelelcaro: But you need other sigs and such to pass ID check now
[07:59:24] <Manoj>	a developer who maintainns a package has stood up and taken responsibility for a fraction of the finished product; in units that the product is distributed and tracked in: a package.
[07:59:25] <bab>	ooo, this is a fun question
[07:59:30] <sanxiyn>	womble: I think it's not possible to pass anonymously in sane way.
[07:59:49] <gravity>	bab: Yeah. This is the best one yet :-)
[07:59:50] <dato>	fwiw, there are jokes that I'm a "virtual" personna of jordi.
[08:00:01] <dondelelcaro>	although, in most cases, you can go through the NM templates yourself, and ask an AM if you have specific questions.
[08:00:03] <Hydroxide>	this isn't really a fair question, although I want to see what JW's answer is
[08:00:04] <womble>	Not to mention that you'd have to maintain packages or do something else useful as your pseudonym in order to get through.
[08:00:04] <vorlon>	martin_krafft_: too late for another question?
[08:00:06] <dato>	because only he knows me IRL, nobody else.
[08:00:07] <sanxiyn>	dato: Are you?
[08:00:08] <martin_krafft_>	try it.
[08:00:11] <martin_krafft_>	vorlon: ^^
[08:00:20] <vorlon>	martin_krafft_: what do you believe is the minimum level of activity that should be expected from DDs?
[08:00:23] <Rhonda>	dato: Me being accused of being Joey (Schulze). :)
[08:00:27] <dato>	sanxiyn: the answer will always be, 'no!'
[08:00:27] <gravity>	GO GUS!
[08:00:36] <womble>	gravity +1
[08:00:44] <kylem>	Rhonda, i'm sorry, now that i reflect on it, mail alias + voting would probably be a good idea for high volume translators.
[08:00:54] <slef>	AngusLees++ for honesty, -- for diplomacy
[08:01:04] <Rhonda>	kylem: :)
[08:01:11] <biella>	best moment in the debate goes to angus
[08:01:12] <helix>	slef: heh
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[08:01:25] <kylem>	Rhonda, a metric would need to be established for keeping people active though, since it would be fairly easy for a translator to do say a 100, get their alias, then fade to obscurity.
[08:01:44] <joeyh>	hmm, andreas didn't answer did he?
[08:02:13] <sanxiyn>	kylem: Yes, translator continuity is a problem indeed.
[08:02:15] <Hydroxide>	more interestingly, JW didn't
[08:02:16] <dondelelcaro>	Rhonda: I'd be a little wary about the voting though, unless they had gone through the P&P part of NM, though.
[08:02:22] <Rhonda>	kylem: You mean...  Like people coming in with a package and doing no upload after they got their account? :)
[08:02:24] <joeyh>	hmm, yes
[08:02:29] <Rhonda>	kylem: It's not like that isn't happening.
[08:02:31] <vorlon>	martin_krafft_: *should* expect from DDs, not *can* expect from DDs
[08:02:32] <kylem>	Rhonda, yes, exactly.
[08:02:53] <peterS>	dondelelcaro: indeed, it's not like P&P is discriminatory against people who can't hack it as real maintainers
[08:02:53] <kylem>	Rhonda, granted, i don't think anyone should lose their mail alias ever. voting priviledge should definitely be tied to activity though.
[08:03:01] <kylem>	(i'm annoyed when i lose email aliases. ;)
[08:03:01] <peterS>	as opposed to T&S
[08:03:07] <martin_krafft_>	vorlon: sorry... i suck.
[08:03:07] <dato>	martin_krafft_: can you ask JW and Andreas to answer, perhaps, the who would you vote question?
[08:03:09] <Rhonda>	dondelelcaro: DPL voting, at least.  Might be discussed about technical issues, granted.
[08:03:10] <vorlon>	aw, no real discussion on that point anyway, alas.
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[08:03:25] <vorlon>	martin_krafft_: it's ok, the candidates' answers would probably have been lame anyway :)
[08:03:29] <slef>	vorlon: tail-end.
[08:03:43] <dondelelcaro>	Rhonda: yeah, the technical issues and changing project directions are the real things I'm worried about...
[08:03:45] <jvw>	I try to make a point of detecting inactive people before they actually hurt the project by neglectance of packages...
[08:03:52] <dato>	martin_krafft_: thanks
[08:04:22] <jaldhar>	we need something like the old karma report.  Though with better heuristics
[08:04:22] <sanxiyn>	"I'm willing to upset some people in order to make things better for everyone else"
[08:04:29] <sanxiyn>	Indeed.
[08:04:47] 	 * gravity chuckles at aj
[08:04:48] <Manoj>	the old karma report was a farce
[08:05:02] <vorlon>	slef: indeed
[08:05:08] <jvw>	jaldhar: karma report was really something I very dislik
[08:05:13] <slef>	Manoj: did someone refer to it?
[08:05:22] <slef>	oic, soz
[08:05:24] <jaldhar>	Manoj: yes true.  I was #1 just by adding new webmin modules :)
[08:05:28] <jvw>	nearly as bad the as "Ranking of worst maintainers" of a few months ago
[08:05:42] <dondelelcaro>	jvw: hrm... I must have missed that one
[08:05:47] Quit	XinmingLai_ has left this server. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[08:05:52] 	 * Hydroxide didn't really expect JW to answer the voting question, anyway
[08:05:58] Join	XinmingLai_ has joined this channel. (XinmingLai@60.180.94.242)
[08:06:06] <jaldhar>	jvw: for some personality types a "high score table" is motivational
[08:06:33] <kylem>	hahahaha.
[08:06:34] <kylem>	hahah.
[08:06:35] <joeyh>	still no answer to that question from krooger?
[08:06:35] <kylem>	oh shit.
[08:06:38] <Manoj>	holy shit
[08:06:43] <kylem>	tell me he didn't just do that.
[08:06:54] <womble>	kylem: he did.  He so did.
[08:06:56] <gravity>	He did it
[08:06:59] <vorlon>	s/FEAR/WIT/
[08:07:00] <gravity>	And I laughed
[08:07:02] <kylem>	fuck it. i'm voting for him now.
[08:07:02] <kylem>	:)
[08:07:04] <gravity>	And now I shall laugh some more
[08:07:06] <sanxiyn>	"For some personality types" +1
[08:07:11] <kylem>	with god on our side, how can we lose!
[08:07:18] <rcyeske>	im so glad i stayed up for that finale!
[08:07:19] <kylem>	;-)
[08:07:25] <slef>	kylem: holy war?
[08:07:27] <gravity>	Thanks moderators!
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[08:07:43] <kylem>	slef, sigh, i'd make an off-colour joke, but i'd really rather not have a holy war at such a late hour.
[08:07:46] <womble>	So who's going to post the "who'd you vote for" question to -vote so we can get more answers?
[08:07:48] <Loevborg>	yes, thank everyone.
[08:07:58] Nick	BrandenRobinson is now known as Overfiend.
[08:07:59] <Loevborg>	thanks.
[08:08:05] Nick	AnthonyTowns is now known as aj.
[08:08:08] <peterS>	BrandenRobinson, AndreasSchuldei, AnthonyTowns, AngusLees, MatthewGarrett, martin_krafft_, helen: good job
[08:08:09] <Overfiend>	Okay, beat me up, folks.
[08:08:15] <sanxiyn>	Everybody, thank you.
[08:08:16] <Manoj>	well, this was the best debate I have seen, so far
[08:08:18] <womble>	Back to our regularly scheduled nicks
[08:08:19] Nick	AngusLees is now known as gus.
[08:08:22] <Manoj>	well done, folks
[08:08:24] <Overfiend>	Let's hear it.  Every misstep, every overreach.
[08:08:28] 	 * aj takes the tie off and undoes the collar, ugh
[08:08:36] <peterS>	Overfiend: J00 SUX D00D
[08:08:48] <gravity>	Well done everyone
[08:08:58] 	 * Rhonda hands aj some beer.
[08:09:00] <Overfiend>	If I'm not mistaken, stockholm wins the "fuck" award.
[08:09:00] <dondelelcaro>	The log, if anyone missed part of the debate: http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate
[08:09:06] <sugarmice>	Is there a transcript of the entire debate somewhere?  I only caught the last half hour (way too early in the morning for me.  :-) )
[08:09:08] Nick	MatthewGarrett is now known as mjg59_.
[08:09:11] <dondelelcaro>	sugarmice: see above
[08:09:12] <aj>	peterS: none of us mentioned the benefits of heterogenity because there's no time to answer multipart questions fully, for reference, gar
[08:09:19] <smurfix>	Overfiend: I'll reserve that one for you-know-who.
[08:09:21] <bab>	congrats candidates, helen, martin_krafft_
[08:09:24] <gravity>	That was pretty insane
[08:09:25] <peterS>	aj: there is that
[08:09:29] <Rhonda>	sugarmice: Right above your question.  :)
[08:09:29] 	 * smurfix seconds bab
[08:09:29] <sugarmice>	Bing - someone must have been reading my mind
[08:09:42] <gravity>	I'm going to have to re-read the log when it's posted more carefully
[08:09:43] <helen>	thanks people
[08:09:46] <gravity>	I only got snippets
[08:09:53] <martin_krafft_>	mjg59_: sorry. :)
[08:10:03] <gravity>	Next year... question: Response + Rebuttal?
[08:10:04] 	 * Overfiend also welcomes feedback in /msg.
[08:10:10] <sanxiyn>	So can we hear about benefits of heterogenity now? :-)
[08:10:11] <Rhonda>	<Cord> . o O ( do we have a Matthew in listamsters? i didn't seen one yet. )
[08:10:12] <Adrinael>	Can someone give the nicks of the candidates (with names), I have nick changes ignored >_<
[08:10:23] <dondelelcaro>	Adrinael: they're on db.debian.org
[08:10:26] <Adrinael>	Oh
[08:10:33] <Rhonda>	womble: You bad bad h@><0r!  :)
[08:10:35] <mjg59_>	Adrinael: I'm Matthew Garrett
[08:10:37] <Overfiend>	Adrinael: aj = Anthony Towns, stockholm = Andreas Schuldei, Overfiend = Branden Robinson, ...
[08:10:38] <gus>	dondelelcaro: but they don't seem searchable (via remote LDAP) anymore :(
[08:10:43] <peterS>	Adrinael: brandenrobinson == overfiend.  anthonytowns == aj.  anguslees == gus.  matthewgarrett == mjg59
[08:10:45] <kylem>	ANGRYDPL++!
[08:10:46] <joeyh>	"and I approve this message"
[08:10:46] <kylem>	;-)
[08:10:49] <dondelelcaro>	gus: but the web frontend should work...
[08:10:51] <Overfiend>	Adrinael: krooger = SirDinosaur = Jonathan Walther
[08:10:54] <helix>	joeyh: heh
[08:11:01] <Adrinael>	Thanks to everyone =)
[08:11:03] <gus>	Adrinael: I'm Angus Lees (note to everyone, its a british surname - not "Lee")
[08:11:17] <gus>	(since that mistake seems to have been made several times this election)
[08:11:24] <Overfiend>	gus: you could be Anthony Town
[08:11:25] <womble>	rhonda: didn't you know, I have evil mind powers...
[08:11:31] <peterS>	Overfiend: ha, was about to say that
[08:11:31] <Manoj>	what is angrydpl?
[08:11:41] <peterS>	Manoj: that would be mjg59's campaign web site
[08:11:44] <Overfiend>	Manoj: mjg59's campaign headquarters
[08:11:46] <vorlon>	There's a "fuck" award?
[08:11:47] <mjg59_>	Manoj: A website that some people wrote without telling me
[08:11:58] <Overfiend>	vorlon: Andreas was the only candidate to say "fuck" during the debate.
[08:12:09] <gus>	mjg59_: i am *so* getting an "ESR stole my cultural heritage" shirt, btw
[08:12:12] <helix>	not the one I would've expected :)
[08:12:17] <mjg59_>	gus: Haha
[08:12:24] <peterS>	hey, at least mjg59_ didn't do the usual nouveau web thing and challenge the DNS limit of 64 bytes per domain component
[08:12:27] Quit	caiqian has left this server. (Client Quit)
[08:12:27] <joeyh>	oh, the site is back up
[08:12:40] <Overfiend>	helix: you have ops in here, or I'd experience one hell of a rebound from all my self-restraint...
[08:12:56] <mjg59_>	It should also be noted that plane tower tower.com wasn't registered by me...
[08:12:57] <kylem>	Overfiend, feel free to do it in -devel for our amusement.
[08:13:04] <mjg59_>	(Or even on my behalf)
[08:13:05] <helix>	I wonder what it is with people thinking I'm all nuts with ops powers
[08:13:07] <peterS>	Overfiend: bleh, like this channel matters now.  if she kicks you out of here you can just take it to #debian-devel
[08:13:08] 	 * sanxiyn visits http://www.angrydpl.com/
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[08:13:25] <vorlon>	Overfiend: spiff
[08:13:25] Quit	sugarmice has left this server. ("BitchX: shaken, not stirred")
[08:13:54] <Overfiend>	see y'all in the funny papers.  the xfree86 SVN repo has been restored to an FSFS-backed housing
[08:13:55] <helen>	helix, Rhonda, slef, dondelelcaro thanks for helping in here.   You have done a great job!
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[08:14:03] Topic	dondelelcaro sets the channel topic to "The 2005 Debian DPL debate will take place on 16 March 2005, 06:00 UTC | Candidate names and platforms are available at https://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001 | Debate details: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00507.html | Summary of debian-vote discussions: http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005 | This is the public discussion channel for the debate. | http://archimedes.ucr.edu/debian_dpl_debate for the debate transcript".
[08:14:12] Part	kylem has left this channel. ()
[08:14:22] 	 * slef cheers topic length limits
[08:14:28] <sanxiyn>	truncated!
[08:14:37] <joeyh>	hurrah for irc!
[08:14:44] <slef>	that seems to have been a running theme today :-/
[08:14:44] <peterS>	it's ok, we know what it means
[08:15:02] <part>	could replace the "debate takes place" with "debate over"
[08:15:04] <peterS>	slef: yeah, people confuse 'line-based interface' with 'paragraph-based interface' frequently, it seems
[08:15:07] <mjg59_>	slef: Lots of the current topic could be dropped
[08:15:10] <ben_vos>	s/take/took/
[08:15:10] <gus>	and after all that debate scheduling, mbp was giving a talk on bazaar-ng at debsig today i had to miss :(
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[08:15:24] <bdale>	gus: ouch
[08:15:30] <helix>	gus: aw
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[08:16:24] <bdale>	gus: is he on the LCA agenda, or do you know offhand?
[08:16:41] <gus>	oh well. i can't see mbp without being reminded of whip marks anyway (story i don't intend to tell involving one of raster's parties..)
[08:16:45] <gus>	bdale: dunno..
[08:16:53] <aj>	bdale: he's on the papers ctte
[08:16:55] <bdale>	gus: no worries, I can look as easily as you can
[08:17:05] <bdale>	aj: oh, right, I knew that
[08:17:06] <aj>	bdale: we can draft him into giving a talk at deb miniconf surely at least
[08:17:17] 	 * mjg59_ is going to LCA
[08:17:19] <aj>	bdale: i think that remains unscheduled as of yet
[08:17:21] <bdale>	aj: would be interesting to have an update in some context
[08:17:26] <mjg59_>	(woo!)
[08:17:29] <bdale>	mjg59_: cool.  it's fun.
[08:17:36] <peterS>	it sounds like fun
[08:17:39] <mjg59_>	bdale: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it
[08:17:45] <bdale>	aj: been trading email with Oxer about it, actually
[08:17:48] <mjg59_>	Need to get flights organised - at least I've got somewhere to stay now
[08:18:02] 	 * bdale will have the entire family along this year
[08:18:10] <aj>	bdale: half of them presenting, no less...
[08:18:18] <bdale>	aj: well, that too
[08:18:21] <mjg59_>	(Incidentally, if anyone has any followup questions they'd like to ask me in realtime, feel free to now - otherwise I'm going to start considering going back to bed...)
[08:18:26] <peterS>	the few thousand dollars of spare change never seems to land in my lap, so I can never actually make it to a LCA, but that's definitely a priority if I ever do strike it rich
[08:18:37] Part	sbeyer has left this channel. ("bye")
[08:18:38] <slef>	http://mjr.towers.org.uk/debian_dpl_debate.html
[08:18:59] <bdale>	peterS: get a paper accepted, and there's often some travel sponsorship options available
[08:19:03] <gus>	bdale: heh. so is she putting you on the "father's programme" or something? ;)
[08:19:10] <gravity>	slef: Very nice. Thank you.
[08:19:23] <peterS>	bdale: oh, indeed.  if only I had anything to say that dozens of other people don't already know how to say better (:
[08:19:29] <sanxiyn>	slef: Thanks
[08:19:38] <bdale>	peterS: details, details.  never stopped me.  ;-)
[08:19:39] <vorlon>	mjg59_: if elected DPL, do you plan to sleep?
[08:19:40] <peterS>	hehe
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[08:19:50] <gus>	peterS: its all revenge for the rest of the world having conferences that *we* can't get to
[08:19:56] 	 * bdale ^5's vorlon
[08:20:05] <gus>	(actually, thats almost precisly why LCA exists..)
[08:20:10] Part	joeyh has left this channel. ("Client exiting")
[08:20:10] <peterS>	gus: oh, I understand, .au doesn't exactly have it easier than .us.  still, I'm jealous of people who can make it to LCA (:
[08:20:15] <mjg59_>	vorlon: I intend to sleep. If people feel that I am devoting insufficient time to my waking or sleeping hours, I will summarily ignore them.
[08:20:29] <slef>	thanks to the logger... automatic edit/reformat suggestions welcome... copy the html version whereever you want in my opinion
[08:20:43] <sanxiyn>	mjg59_: What color of rainbow do you like?
[08:20:45] <bdale>	hrm.  I think this will be my fourth LCA?  first was Brisbane.
[08:21:06] <dondelelcaro>	sanxiyn: I find 652.3nm to be a pleasing color
[08:21:17] <peterS>	dondelelcaro: good answer
[08:21:21] <aj>	bdale: brisbane, perth, adelaide, now canberra; you missed sydney, and CALU in melbourne
[08:21:27] <gus>	mjg59_: you could form a "sleeping team". project slumber could all take turns sleeping, with the DPL being allowed to tell any of them that they're snoring too loudly
[08:21:29] <bdale>	aj: sounds right
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[08:21:44] <vorlon>	mjg59_: oh, ok
[08:21:53] 	 * slef changes some colours, if he can remember how
[08:22:11] <aj>	we could try synchronised sleeping -- sleeping in sync with anything would be pretty novel for most debian types...
[08:22:37] <bdale>	aj: hey, now, just because it's true...
[08:22:38] <mjg59_>	It's vital that teams tell the rest of the project when they're going to be asleep.
[08:22:44] <kandinski>	hmmm
[08:22:47] <Rhonda>	aj: I rather like to see sleep as background process.
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[08:23:04] <gus>	aj: but getting everyone to sleep at the same time would be too hard, so you'd have to kick most of them out of bed before you could claim it was a reasonable goal
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[08:23:12] <mjg59_>	sanxiyn: I do not discriminate against any colour of rainbow
[08:23:51] 	 * gus decides to really go home before the sarcasm starts to kick in
[08:23:51] Part	gus has left this channel. ("No reason")
[08:24:41] <peterS>	mjg59_: do you think a [SLP] message to debian-private is sufficient, or is an alternate mechanism desirable?
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[08:24:49] <bdale>	g'night, all...
[08:24:52] Quit	bdale has left this server. (Client Quit)
[08:24:57] <sanxiyn>	Good night...
[08:26:19] Topic	madduck sets the channel topic to "The debate is over. Logs: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/misc/2005-dpl-debate | Candidate names and platforms are available at https://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_001 | Debate details: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00507.html | Summary of debian-vote discussions: http://debian.edv-bus.at/vote-2005 | Thanks to all who have made this possible.".
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[08:27:18] <mjg59_>	peterS: I think that would be sufficient, if provided in sufficient time
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[08:28:11] Mode	madduck takes channel operator privileges from madduck.
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[08:28:21] Mode	helix takes channel operator privileges from helix.
[08:28:29] Mode	Rhonda takes channel operator privileges from Rhonda.
[08:29:50] Nick	ben_vos is now known as bmesing.
[08:30:16] Mode	You take channel operator privileges from yourself.
[08:30:27] <Zugschlus>	let's replace the topic with "truncated"
[08:30:35] Quit	Loevborg has left this server. (Client Quit)
[08:30:35] <Zugschlus>	that kind of sums up this day
[08:30:47] <helen>	Manoj: what do you want to do with the logs of the debate?  
[08:30:52] Notify	umid is online (localhost).
[08:31:20] <helen>	Manoj: I am going to make a more organised summary of the -debate log, but I think we need to post the original to the vote webpages too
[08:31:28] <helen>	Manoj: as well as those of the other three channels
[08:31:41] Nick	bmesing is now known as ben_vos.
[08:32:05] <Manoj>	helen: well, if you could email them o me, that would be grand
[08:32:17] <peterS>	logs have been sprouting up - dondelelcaro, slef and madduck all posted them
[08:32:28] <helen>	Manoj: I'll email you mine in a minute
[08:32:32] <peterS>	I'm betting at least one of the three posts a URL to -vote, possibly all three will
[08:32:50] <slef>	peterS: let me copy it to people.d.o, actually
[08:32:51] <helen>	well, madduck is heading for a plane now, AIUI.  
[08:33:12] 	 * slef posts
[08:33:35] <dato>	helen or madduck, will you request feedback about the debate? e.g., I think some people liked the second part quite much, so perhaps they want to request moreemphasis in live discussion for next year.
[08:33:44] <Manoj>	well, I can always grab them off -vote too
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[08:33:54] <dato>	09:08 <Manoj> well, this was the best debate I have seen, so far
[08:33:57] <aj>	yeah, the 2nd part was much more pleasant to do than the first one too
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[08:34:05] <dato>	Manoj: ^ was it because of the second part?
[08:34:13] <peterS>	maybe I should post my log.  debian is all about redundant implementations of things people only need one of
[08:34:19] <helen>	dato: ok, I'll do so
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[08:34:28] <Manoj>	dato: yes, though the first part was also managed better than most
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[08:34:36] <dato>	helen: thanks :)
[08:34:49] <cmot>	peterS: ITP dpl-debate-logs-2005
[08:34:56] <peterS>	cmot++
[08:35:25] <peterS>	cmot: as the years go by maybe we'll collate them into a collection of dpl-debates in a single package.  like linux gazette does now
[08:35:51] <Zugschlus>	peterS: you need to get that package past ftpmaste
[08:35:59] <Zugschlus>	and it will never be in stable in time
[08:36:05] <Manoj>	I'll probably put them up on vote.d.o tomorrow (I hatge doing serious work after shooting the glad juices, since I am not supposed to operate heavy machinery)
[08:36:07] <Zugschlus>	a classic candidate for volatile
[08:36:08] <cmot>	Is it really DFSG-free?
[08:36:27] <peterS>	Zugschlus: like AnthonyTowns, I have total confidence in the way the ftpmaster post is being handled
[08:36:53] <aj>	you'd be better off putting them in debian-history, than introducing a NEW package anyway
[08:36:54] <sanxiyn>	cmot: haha
[08:37:00] <peterS>	cmot: maybe the participants will allow a transcription under a creative commons license, like debconf5 papers
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[08:37:12] <aj>	the GPL's a creative commons license...
[08:37:14] <mjg59_>	peterS: NON-FREE
[08:37:22] <mjg59_>	(heretic)
[08:37:24] <Zugschlus>	mjg59_: depends on which kind of CC license